Hydrostatic shock?

[highfinblue]

It's too early for popcorn, but I have a strange craving for it at the moment

 

[sjt18]

You think Barnes is solving the entire discussion in one podcast - I am laughing my butt off right now!!!

A company that made its mark with non expanding bullets that inherently pass through, have less energy upon contact, and cannot compete with standard lead and copper in hydrostatic shock says its a myth?

I have some swamp land in florida I would like to sell you....cheap.

And they didn't even do that. The "expert" acknowledged that HS is a real thing that isn't fully understood.

My take is this. HS seldom if ever actually does the killing. It disrupts the nervous system causing the animal to fall down immobilized. The wound and bleeding still kill the animal. But they likely kill it faster or at least at or near the place it was shot. Most of the deer I've shot were with a 7mm WSM and Silvertip traveling something over 3000 fps at the muzzle. As long as I hit somewhere in the chest/neck area, they fall and die quickly.

You are right though. It behooves Barnes to down play HS on Whitetail. WT probably comprise a pretty big % of the hunting ammo produced. To outright say that something their bullets do not do as well as other bullets is a significant factor... wouldn't help sales.

 

[FirstBubba]

A professional hunter in Africa was asked, "What rifle do you shoot?"
He replied, "A .600 Nitro Express."
"Why do you shoot a .600 Nitro Express?"
"Because they don't make a bloody .700 Nitro Express*!"
Then he was asked, "Will it shoot minute of angle?"
"I don't know," he said, "but it will shoot minute of rhino!"

* - yes, they now build a .700 Nitro Express!
NO! I don't want to shoot one!
Even if it will shoot "minute of rhino"! LOL!

All those fancy numbers don't mean squat to the game animal! What DOES matter is shot placement!
Find a rifle/caliber you can shoot comfortably, learn to shoot it well and go hunting!

 

[FirstBubba]

And they didn't even do that. The "expert" acknowledged that HS is a real thing that isn't fully understood.

My take is this. HS seldom if ever actually does the killing. It disrupts the nervous system causing the animal to fall down immobilized. The wound and bleeding still kill the animal. But they likely kill it faster or at least at or near the place it was shot. Most of the deer I've shot were with a 7mm WSM and Silvertip traveling something over 3000 fps at the muzzle. As long as I hit somewhere in the chest/neck area, they fall and die quickly.

You are right though. It behooves Barnes to down play HS on Whitetail. WT probably comprise a pretty big % of the hunting ammo produced. To outright say that something their bullets do not do as well as other bullets is a significant factor... wouldn't help sales.

I "try" to shoot the "high shoulder shot" on deer. The spine actually runs between the shoulder blades. A well placed high shoulder shot will immediately immobilize a deer.....every time!

 

[sjt18]

If shot placement was all that mattered then we could just all hunt moose with a 223.

Caliber, velocity, bullet performance, force, shot placement, shot angle, and the animal's unique physiology all play into killing game.

All of these things play into the "calculation". There are always trade offs. If you like a smaller, slower caliber and don't mind tracking then go for it. For a lot of reasons, I choose some "overkill" when it comes to caliber, V, and force. It makes a "bad" hit better and a good hit devastating.

 

[sjt18]

I "try" to shoot the "high shoulder shot" on deer. The spine actually runs between the shoulder blades. A well placed high shoulder shot will immediately immobilize a deer.....every time!

That's a good strategy. But I think it is a little different than hydrostatic shock. No one could argue that a direct hit to the spine or even a major nerve running off the spine won't kill quickly. You turn off the impulses that cause everything else to function. Heart stops. Muscles no longer react controllably. Lungs and organs shut down. Best kind of kill. Depending on the rifle and caliber you've got a 4"+/- wound channel that with a high shoulder shot will hit the spine.

I think the argument is over the nervous system impact if you do not hit that close to major nerves. "What is the nervous system impact from a shot that is further away?"

IMO, there can still be enough sudden shock to immobilize the deer while the wounds and bleeding kill it. I also think this is a major advantage of larger calibers/bullets/sectional density and higher velocity. An easy proof is if you dropped a marble into a pool... then a baseball... then a bowling ball. The waves created simulate the shock wave that goes through the animal when shot.

 

[memtb]

If shot placement was all that mattered then we could just all hunt moose with a 223.

I'm with you pertaining to "overkill", though it's a word that I prefer not to use……is far better than "underkill"!

As far as bullet placement, stick around …..there are some that apparently "never" fail to put the bullet exactly where it is intended!

I'm in constant amazement at their shooting prowess! memtb

 

[sjt18]

I'm with you pertaining to "overkill", though it's a word that I prefer not to use……is far better than "underkill"!

As far as bullet placement, stick around …..there are some that apparently "never" fail to put the bullet exactly where it is intended!

I'm in constant amazement at their shooting prowess! memtb

No doubt. I'm fairly confident in "bullet placement" within 150 yds or so. Then physics takes over. A couple of inches off at 100 yds still "places the bullet" pretty good. At 300 yds that's now 6 inches. Heavy and fast compensate... and in my experience don't hurt/damage as much at short distances as some claim.

Back to HS, when I hit a deer in the chest cavity with a 7mm WSM at 3000 fps+ it typically liquifies the lungs. Whatever the explanation... DRT.

 

[MagnumManiac]

I am going to give a real account as to why I don't believe, never will, that hydrostatic shock kills as in of itself.
Most here know I shoot Water Buff here annually. Due to where I go in Arnemland, I get 10 buff licenses per hunt, gender is my choice.

I have several bolt guns to choose from for this, 375H&H, 375Bee, 404 Jeffrey, 416Rigby, 458Lott and 450Rigby. Doubles in 500Nitro, 577Nitro and 600OKH. Have used many other too.
Using both solids and softs, permanent wound channels are only slightly larger with softs, they do not stay larger for the entire wound channel length. With solids, initial disruption can be just as large as softs, including the hydrostatic shock diameter, yet damage into the small tissue structures is about the same. So, a non-expanding bullet can show just as much temporary wound channel size as a soft expanding bullet.
This does not mean killing is faster, or even possible with certain bullet placement. I've shot buff with bullets passing extremely close to the spine with both bullet types, incapacitation is rare, but, a shock to the spine near the neck/shoulder without actually hitting it, often results in the front legs dropping, the buff then bulldozes running, then recovers after a few metres, all the while the hydrostatic shock is only a small part of the equation. Larger diameter bullets create wider hydrostatic shock diameters, but, it still isn't what kills, it's still blood loss.
Sometimes, there is very little hydrostatic shock with both bullet types depending on the muscle structure hit. We often shoot buff in the hips, when they are running, those muscles are contracting and flexing and impacts can show just a hole, or a 6" bloodshot mess.

Cheers.

 

[memtb]

No doubt. I'm fairly confident in "bullet placement" within 150 yds or so. Then physics takes over. A couple of inches off at 100 yds still "places the bullet" pretty good. At 300 yds that's now 6 inches. Heavy and fast compensate... and in my experience don't hurt/damage as much at short distances as some claim.

Back to HS, when I hit a deer in the chest cavity with a 7mm WSM at 3000 fps+ it typically liquifies the lungs. Whatever the explanation... DRT.

I ask forgiveness……in my post, I neglected to add - "at any range"! memtb

 

[xsn10s]

If shot placement was all that mattered then we could just all hunt moose with a 223.

Caliber, velocity, bullet performance, force, shot placement, shot angle, and the animal's unique physiology all play into killing game.

All of these things play into the "calculation". There are always trade offs. If you like a smaller, slower caliber and don't mind tracking then go for it. For a lot of reasons, I choose some "overkill" when it comes to caliber, V, and force. It makes a "bad" hit better and a good hit devastating.

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-mountain-goat-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/

 

[xsn10s]

It's too early for popcorn, but I have a strange craving for it at the moment

Now the popcorn can be popped lol. See post #67

 

[memtb]

Have the popcorn on right now……using the new popper that I got from the "rokhead - uh "slide" tooth fairy!

If spent primers are the "supreme tutorial"……I wonder, how many "spent primers"/ head of big game! memtb

 

[xsn10s]

That's a pretty passive aggressive post.