Hydrostatic shock?

[lancetkenyon]

I think a temporary wound channel is a major factor in killing quickly. When that obliterates soft organs like lungs, an animal is going nowhere further than it can get with 0 oxygen replenished to the blood. And usually, they either drop or stand for a few seconds and the shock.

This is NOT an exit. It is the results of a massive temporary wound channel. 131 SMK @ 3280fps, 331 yds. Buck was hard quartering on, about to bolt for the next 3 miles...
Shot hit between neck and shoulder headed towards the rear offside hip.
We did not find the bullet, but the temporary wound channel was so violent, it removed 2-3 ribs from the nearest side and blew a hole larger than a softball from the chest cavity. He ran about 30' after the shot, pouring out red like dumping a 5 gallon bucket. There were no discernible lungs left in the buck.

 

[Huntaddict]

So, educate us all; who commercialized the solids in 1845, and made it readily available for us all? I am no bullet historian, but Randy Brooks, former owner of Barnes Bullets, is credited with pioneering the modern monolithic (all-copper) bullet industry in the mid-1980s.

Yes Barnes is credited with the first monolithic Copper bullet around 1980. Credit where credit is due but it is not the first idea.

Even thought I hate to give the French any credit and there were about 5 companies all charging to solids big and small, patented in 1845 by the french and marketed as such, yes it was a 22 but it is credited as the first one

In 1882 Swiss Colonel Eduard Rubin invented the Full Metal Steel Bullet (100% all steel) which then became gun projectiles and then the Full Metal Jacket bullet, wrapping a hard copper-alloy shell around a lead core to handle higher velocities, which later became the standard "solid" for dangerous game by making it out of one material, steel in 1917 - Germany made a hard steel core bullet K bullet and then in 1970 a steel monolithic for dangerous game. These were VERY HARD on barrels so copper started to be researched.

They aren't copper no...but they are monolithic and have various uses including small and dangerous game. Woodleigh solids which were all copper, were doing the exact same thing at the same time and there is some conjecture on who got their first

 

[Huntaddict]

So Barnes doesn't expand either?

What is your formula for "energy upon contact".



so what's your point. What are you trying to defend. Is it any different than what Barnes is trying to defend.

Air is healthier than smoke.

I have posted tons of data on other threads on the subject. Go find it...and read it yourself

 

[FEENIX]

I think a temporary wound channel is a major factor in killing quickly. When that obliterates soft organs like lungs, an animal is going nowhere further than it can get with 0 oxygen replenished to the blood. And usually, they either drop or stand for a few seconds and the shock.

This is NOT an exit. It is the results of a massive temporary wound channel. 131 SMK @ 3280fps, 331 yds. Buck was hard quartering on, about to bolt for the next 3 miles...
Shot hit between neck and shoulder headed towards the rear offside hip.
We did not find the bullet, but the temporary wound channel was so violent, it removed 2-3 ribs from the nearest side and blew a hole larger than a softball from the chest cavity. He ran about 30' after the shot, pouring out red like dumping a 5 gallon bucket. There were no discernible lungs left in the buck.

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LL! I know what you mean. I am pretty sure you have seen these before. Below is taken at 200Y (~2646 FPS/2720 FT-LBS) with the 175 Matrix VLD out of my .270 AI. No, it is not a gut shot, but a heart shot.

Below is from the same rifle at 525Y (~2131 FPS/1765 FT-LBS), chest shot.

 

[Huntaddict]

LL! I know what you mean. I am pretty sure you have seen these before. Below is taken at 200Y (~2646 FPS/2720 FT-LBS) with the 175 Matrix VLD out of my .270 AI. No, it is not a gut shot, but a heart shot.
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Below is from the same rifle at 525Y (~2131 FPS/1765 FT-LBS), chest shot.
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Here is a would channel on a Cape Buffalo from a 500 grain soft...that ran through its chest. Hydrostatic shock and energetic transfer of energy through the entire chest cavity. About 18 inches across and completely destroyed the entire chest cavity. Exactly what we want that cannot be achieved with solids - i know because the follow up shot which broke him down from my 470 double made about a 2 inch hole completely through and out the other side, through bone, with almost NO wound channel

 

[FEENIX]

Here is a would channel on a Cape Buffalo from a 500 grain soft...that ran through its chest. Hydrostatic shock and energetic transfer of energy through the entire chest cavity. About 18 inches across and completely destroyed the entire chest cavity. Exactly what we want that cannot be achieved with solids - i know because the follow up shot which broke him down from my 470 double made about a 2 inch hole completely through and out the other side, through bone, with almost NO wound channel

Unless I misconstrued, I do not think anyone is advocating that solids are better. Again, it is an alternative for an end-user to make, much like the different alternative bullet designs in C&C line.

 

[jseandsje]

Here is a would channel on a Cape Buffalo from a 500 grain soft...that ran through its chest. Hydrostatic shock and energetic transfer of energy through the entire chest cavity. About 18 inches across and completely destroyed the entire chest cavity. Exactly what we want that cannot be achieved with solids - i know because the follow up shot which broke him down from my 470 double made about a 2 inch hole completely through and out the other side, through bone, with almost NO wound channel

I'm glad you got that buffalo, and you had a reliable bullet.

 

[joep17]

late 80's or early 90's i helped a guide who had Randy and Connie Brooks as clients. Randy had the original X bullet in a Melvin Forbes 284. He explained his theory in camp.

The originals and the coated were cranky. But the TSX and TTSX are the ****

now all i hunt with. I have witnessed over 100 kills with TSX. All great if proper placement.

Nosler partitions were the best until introduction of TSX and TTSX. Partitions are the best if you have a bad barrel as the base expands and accuracy can be found.

My late friend on the upper left found out what a 270 Gr TSX from a 375 HH does.

I load for 6 hunting pals and only these bullets. What I like is that about 50 thou jump works well,

And i shoot at least 5000 bergers a year in competition. Berger make the best match bullets but they are not hunting bullets.

Hornady Vmax for varmints.

And when i met Melvin at the 2016 shot show, i finally ordered my NULA in 284.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

late 80's or early 90's i helped a guide who had Randy and Connie Brooks as clients. Randy had the original X bullet in a Melvin Forbes 284. He explained his theory in camp.

The originals and the coated were cranky. But the TSX and TTSX are the ****

now all i hunt with. I have witnessed over 100 kills with TSX. All great if proper placement.

Nosler partitions were the best until introduction of TSX and TTSX. Partitions are the best if you have a bad barrel as the base expands and accuracy can be found.

My late friend on the upper left found out what a 270 Gr TSX from a 375 HH does.

I load for 6 hunting pals and only these bullets. What I like is that about 50 thou jump works well,

And i shoot at least 5000 bergers a year in competition. Berger make the best match bullets but they are not hunting bullets.

Hornady Vmax for varmints.

And when i met Melvin at the 2016 shot show, i finally ordered my NULA in 284.

What is the maximum distance/ velocity you trust TTSX to perform as needed?

 

[ButterBean]

@fordy I'm guessing has some valuable insight?

He does but he's still in Africa

 

[joep17]

Great question Phil

Having the great fortune of growing up where i did, I learned to call and stalk.

Today i will not let guys shoot past 300 yards. Most guys dont shoot enough to know what they are doing. You can always get closer.

My 270WSM is 3309 fps MV with 130 gr. My 30-06 is 168 gr at 2750. Both fold moose like a cheap tent.

i do not support or endorse shooting further than your skill set. I have never seen a TSX fail to kill if used as appropriate. I have seen many lost animals with Bergers. And again, i shoot more Bergers in competition each year than many members here shoot in a lifetime.

 

[Huntaddict]

Unless I misconstrued, I do not think anyone is advocating that solids are better. Again, it is an alternative for an end-user to make, much like the different alternative bullet designs in C&C line.

Yeah I don't think so either. What is being discussed is hydrostatic shock and what is the right amount from what bullet type. Sharing my experience is all

 

[xsn10s]

I think a temporary wound channel is a major factor in killing quickly. When that obliterates soft organs like lungs, an animal is going nowhere further than it can get with 0 oxygen replenished to the blood. And usually, they either drop or stand for a few seconds and the shock.

This is NOT an exit. It is the results of a massive temporary wound channel. 131 SMK @ 3280fps, 331 yds. Buck was hard quartering on, about to bolt for the next 3 miles...
Shot hit between neck and shoulder headed towards the rear offside hip.
We did not find the bullet, but the temporary wound channel was so violent, it removed 2-3 ribs from the nearest side and blew a hole larger than a softball from the chest cavity. He ran about 30' after the shot, pouring out red like dumping a 5 gallon bucket. There were no discernible lungs left in the buck.

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Yup temporal wound cavities with mono type bullets don't effect wounding much like Dr Fackler observed. But even Dr Fackler observed more tearing in temporal wound cavities from fragmenting bullet is section or when secondary fragments are added. Now imo when fragmenting bullets are introduced into hydrostatic shock it becomes a permanent cavity with many, many tearing tissue causing much more hemorrhaging.

 

[Huntaddict]

Yup temporal wound cavities with mono type bullets don't effect wounding much like Dr Fackler observed. But even Dr Fackler observed more tearing in temporal wound cavities from fragmenting bullet is section or when secondary fragments are added. Now imo when fragmenting bullets are introduced into hydrostatic shock it becomes a permanent cavity with many, many tearing tissue causing much more hemorrhaging.

There is definitely something to this. On the same Africa trip I used the 215 Berger Hybrid on sable and a wildebeest. Bullet went in a few inches and exploded like a grenade creating both massive hydrostatic shock from all the energy and permanent wound channeling in multiple directions. Starting to become more of a believer in pass through being over rated.