How well does the average big game hunter shoot?

[ICMDEER]

This is my 36th year as a big game outfitter in Wyoming. I guided before that. I've also guided a few other states. I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end. Most people can't shoot. Plain and simple, they can't shoot. Add that to the fact that most can't walk and couple it with the fact they can't see well and it creates a real problem. But everybody wants a 180 mule deer, a 350 bull elk, etc.

I have an 800+ yard range at home. I also build rifles and I shoot quite a bit. Not as much as LanceT but a lot. I bet most hunters don't shoot 20 rounds per year before they arrive here. We make everyone shoot. I have had MANY people that don't even know how to load or unload their rifle. I've seen some drop the hinged floorplate and try to load their rifle from the bottom, then mash the floorplate against the ammo. But others don't even know about the hinged floorplate, so they unload their magazine by running all the ammo in the magazine through the chamber by opening and closing the bolt 3-4 times. Many have "practice ammo" and "hunt ammo" different bullets and weights. We had one guy walk in the house and unload "John Wayne style" by working his bolt. Oops, had his finger on the trigger and shot through 2 walls and the shower before it buried itself in the exterior wall. This after passing signs that say "ABSOLUTELY NO LOADED FIREARMS IN THE HOUSE." Needless to say, that did not sell well with me.

Most are real happy if they can shoot a 2-3" group at 100 yards off of a bench with sandbags. I even have people that refuse to adjust their scope "because it was on at home." What the heck???? Then they really start to show their skill (or lack of skill) when we ask them to shoot plates at even 300-400 yards. Most say they have never shot that far before. The ones that have shot distance almost always miss at 3-400. Then they say "I was on in Alabama or California." And this is off sandbags and a solid bench under a protected shed. After hiking all day, dashing to the top of a ridge, huffing and puffing, they will miss.

We do all this because we need to know their limits. A few can really hunt/shoot. The vast majority have to get close and have lots of time. They talk about their abilities, but it is often not backed by what we see at the range. In fact, most of the guys who show up with a turreted rifle don't even know that the turrets on the rifle can be adjusted. They have someone else sight in the rifle and just leave it. When I pull out my big box of tools to adjust their turrets, they are really confused.

I would say only 10% of our hunters are real hunters. They either can't walk or can't shoot, and certainly can't shoot quickly. I'll close by saying if I had a quarter for every time I have heard the phrase "I can't find him in my scope" I could retire immediately with a million quarters in my pocket. The truly amazing thing is that people spend all the time and money for a western hunt and are so very unprepared. Simply amazing.
In summary, it is true most people can't shoot and most people are physically unfit. We meet some very nice people but most are not well qualified for western big game hunting.

 

[asd9055]

Yeah, I was young and dumb for too long. I had a bad experience in basic training. Forgot my cheap army issue ear plugs and was more worried about the dusting we would get from the drill Sargent than I was about my ears. Shot 120 rounds from a covered foxhole and almost cried on every shot. Hearing was never the same and now the constant siren in my head never quits. I have not hear silence in 20 years.

My two boys always wear hearing protection and shoot suppressed.

Bootcamp in a poor country with Lee Engield, and Bren Gun, I was a Bren Gunner in boot camp. Half day at range each time, ear protection what? We didn't know such things.
Now, not only I raised and trained my kids to always wear it, but with Magnums or muzzle brakes its always double. Int he ear plugs and over the ear muffs.

 

[parshal]

I'm gonna say that "1 MOA" shooters couldn't hold a MOA beyond the 100 yard line if there are any environmental factors to consider. And most that claim they, or their equipment, is "1 MOA" are basing it off one particular group or maybe a few lucky groups and it's not something they can do every time they produce the rifle let alone from anywhere other than the bench at the 100 yard line. I hate that term. Rant/off.

Very few of even the really good PRS shooters are 1 MOA shooters. Maybe prone or off a bench but not positionally or under duress.

Try the Kraft drill prone, low/high tripod (or bag) and standing. That 1/2" MOA gun is more like 1.5-2 MOA due to the shooter.

Now, imagine how your "best" average shooter would be.

 

[Lee7588]

This is my 36th year as a big game outfitter in Wyoming. I guided before that. I've also guided a few other states. I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end. Most people can't shoot. Plain and simple, they can't shoot. Add that to the fact that most can't walk and couple it with the fact they can't see well and it creates a real problem. But everybody wants a 180 mule deer, a 350 bull elk, etc.

I have an 800+ yard range at home. I also build rifles and I shoot quite a bit. Not as much as LanceT but a lot. I bet most hunters don't shoot 20 rounds per year before they arrive here. We make everyone shoot. I have had MANY people that don't even know how to load or unload their rifle. I've seen some drop the hinged floorplate and try to load their rifle from the bottom, then mash the floorplate against the ammo. But others don't even know about the hinged floorplate, so they unload their magazine by running all the ammo in the magazine through the chamber by opening and closing the bolt 3-4 times. Many have "practice ammo" and "hunt ammo" different bullets and weights. We had one guy walk in the house and unload "John Wayne style" by working his bolt. Oops, had his finger on the trigger and shot through 2 walls and the shower before it buried itself in the exterior wall. This after passing signs that say "ABSOLUTELY NO LOADED FIREARMS IN THE HOUSE." Needless to say, that did not sell well with me.

Most are real happy if they can shoot a 2-3" group at 100 yards off of a bench with sandbags. I even have people that refuse to adjust their scope "because it was on at home." What the heck???? Then they really start to show their skill (or lack of skill) when we ask them to shoot plates at even 300-400 yards. Most say they have never shot that far before. The ones that have shot distance almost always miss at 3-400. Then they say "I was on in Alabama or California." And this is off sandbags and a solid bench under a protected shed. After hiking all day, dashing to the top of a ridge, huffing and puffing, they will miss.

We do all this because we need to know their limits. A few can really hunt/shoot. The vast majority have to get close and have lots of time. They talk about their abilities, but it is often not backed by what we see at the range. In fact, most of the guys who show up with a turreted rifle don't even know that the turrets on the rifle can be adjusted. They have someone else sight in the rifle and just leave it. When I pull out my big box of tools to adjust their turrets, they are really confused.

I would say only 10% of our hunters are real hunters. They either can't walk or can't shoot, and certainly can't shoot quickly. I'll close by saying if I had a quarter for every time I have heard the phrase "I can't find him in my scope" I could retire immediately with a million quarters in my pocket. The truly amazing thing is that people spend all the time and money for a western hunt and are so very unprepared. Simply amazing.
In summary, it is true most people can't shoot and most people are physically unfit. We meet some very nice people but most are not well qualified for western big game hunting.

I agree, when I travel to hunt I expect to be able to check my zero and check it at distance also. I live in Florida and my elevation is roughly 215 feet. So most places I would be traveling to hunt will have a different elevation so it will change my impact. As a hunter it is my responsibility to take the animal as quickly as possible and not wound the animal causing it to suffer.

 

[Old Rooster]

Being honest I admit on paper with no hurry shots I can shoot very well,sub 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards many times but when a 350-360 class bull elk comes into the picture that changes.Many here on this forum could outshoot me I would guess but I enjoy hunting.
I will continue to practice until I get so old and worn out that I can't anymore as that's what keeps me going.
I feel for outfitters/guides as I have talked to many here in Montana that have about lost all their hair due to folks that pay them to find the elk and then blame the guide for them not getting their elk.

 

[264WM]

First you have to define the average hunter? Then there is too many variables to consider that can affect the expert hunter/shooter let alone a average hunter. The deer in my logo photo was running broad side at 300 yards and was taken with my Remington 264WM through the lungs.

 

[skipglo]

Strange thread! Aren't we all HUNTERS? I've seen alot of pics here daily of conquests in the field. So it must be the number of rounds sent down range that is the determining factor then? Or is it Paper doesn't bleed, or run away if poorly hit or missed. So I guess the comments are if I get this right...when we are hunting we must shoot at least a 3" group and stay within 200 yards...and then go back to 500-1500 to punch our targets! Sorry...just confused...I may shoot 1500 + rounds a year .....but I'm a hunter too!

 

[DoneNOut]

I had a blast guiding/sub guiding my buddy recently. Over the years I have elevated his shooting skills and confidence in field shooting. The best thing about him is that he actually does what I suggest! That is gold right there! LOL We went to a 2000 acre high fence spot. The last 500-600lbs Russian bore had been shot just prior to out arrival. The outfit suggested a Ankole-Watusi hunt instead. Get a lot more and higher quality meat, so we were happy to switch game. When attempting to calm shooters, I always say, "You got all the time in the world to make the shot right. I mean, not really, but it's a less anxiety statement than saying, "Don't rush your shot". It took us 1.5 days to get the right shot on the right longhorn. The herd seemed to know which one we were targeting and kept it in the middle. It was a fun time. Here is a quick vid of one of the potential shooting situations. I was so proud to hear my guy getting his breathing in control while prepping the shot. "Take a breath and assess".

 

[scpaul]

I'm an above average marksman but that isn't saying much these days. I generally shoot sub moa. I know MOST of my limitations and try not to overstep them. I generally don't shoot at a moving animal unless it's just strolling enjoying the day or grazing. I don't have very much experience with reading the wind. S.C. doesn't have very much wind compared to western states, so that is tough and finding a place to shoot safely over 500yds is tough. I used to instruct safely and marksmanship for my hunting clubs over the years and getting some people to accept their limitations under the circumstances sometimes is tougher than teaching marksmanship and safety. AND let's not forget that little redheaded demon known as buck/rack fever. I've experienced adult hunters just go to nothing over horns.
Like I've told some people is before you disengage the safely engage your brain.

 

[bultinkle]

This thread has been an eye opener to me on how easy it is for antis to get us to do the hard work for them.

Nothing the shooting/hunting community loves more than an opportunity to talk junk about other shooters and hunters to make us feel superior

Can you imagine what a wildlife agency that is being badgered with anti long range hunting advocates is thinking reading this. Gracious me.

 

[Mike Matteson]

I have found over the years that shooting rifles that achieve very close to the same vleocity, cut down your bullet or flight path to remember. Which inturns figuring out your drop, becomes almost a no-brainer. I generally use a 2x8 duplex leupold scope on my rifles. I am good to 500yds. I do like the range finders of now days. There are ways to figure out yardages using a duplex scope, and no range finder. Sure cut down what the yards is from you and the animal, and quicker. That's a plus!! I have watch hunter with all the bells and whistles in a scope shooting from 50yds to 150yds ranging, and adjusting their elevation. I still shake my head even today. This man was L.C. in the Army. When I was in the Army over 50 years ago we used open sight or peep sights. We shot out to 400 meters. I did qualified as expert rifleman at the time. That was M-14 or 308 case. I only got too Spl-E5.
Now I have been on 2 guided trips. I found that the guide seem to like you to hurry your shots. First trip, I did wound a animal, and end up losing the animal. Being push to shoot. Spent a full day trying to track is down. I learn then, and would tell the guide not to say hurry up and shot. When I am ready to shot, I am the only that know what my sight patten is, and determing placement of shot. Not all animals are standing broadside. Can be at all type of angles to shoot at. Need to determine where that bullet is going in at and what it's going to hit along it's path from entering and existing to make that killing shot. You need to know where the vital areas are and how to get to them. Most animals are built the same. So that should be a no-brainer. I generally place my shoots just behind the front shoulder vertical line. If it isn't, then you need to study the animals and location of vital areas. You should have this in your mind. To project where your bullet is going to travel and what it's going hit.

 

[DoneNOut]

This thread has been an eye opener to me on how easy it is for antis to get us to do the hard work for them.

Nothing the shooting/hunting community loves more than an opportunity to talk junk about other shooters and hunters to make us feel superior

Can you imagine what a wildlife agency that is being badgered with anti long range hunting advocates is thinking reading this. Gracious me.

We could be talking making Smores and they would still hate us. No way to placate the demons.

 

[scpaul]

Unfortunately you are probably right. I really hope that some people with an I.Q. larger than their shoeshine realize that this is actually a form of us trying to improve ourselves by realizing our own weaknesses.

 

[Roughrice]

Shooting across a draw can certainly introduce some very high wind velocitie!

Many years ago, the wife and I had a group of elk, with 2 rag horn 6x6's in the group. It was a relatively short shot of only about 200 to 250 yards across a draw. We had a good breeze we're we were at, with no clue how fast across the draw…. But, it must have been pretty darn high.

We picked out our bulls, the wife shot first with my shot immediately after. Both were broadside shots, and we both always go for a behind the shoulder shot on a broadside presentation. We both wounded our bulls, later to find that both bullet impacts were remarkably similar….both gut shots.

Thankfully, both of us shot higher caliber rifles with moderately heavy bullets. Both elk were quite sick from the wounds, and closing on them and finishing them off was pretty easy/uneventful!

To this day, I wonder how fast that wind was to cause that much drift on a short range shot as this! memtb

I'm down here in the flatlands and practice winds also but when I was up there on an elk hunt once, the guide told me the winds naturally blow right/left as usual but can also move uphill and downhill along steep bluffs as well which would add another dimension to the long range shot. But what he said made sense...that those up/down drafts are usually closer to the target nearer the slope wall at which point wouldn't have as much time to affect bullet flight before impact.
Just something I have never considered being down in the flatlands.
I'm sure some of you that live up there may have experienced some of this shooting science.