Hodgdon Varget .223 - Temperature Sensitive?

[Pdvdh]

I know Hodgdon advertises Varget in their Extreme line of powders, which is supposed to help minimize temperature sensitivity.

I've chronographed Hornady 60gr Vmax bullets using 26-26.9gr Varget out of my AR-15 M4 carbine. Reviewing my MV data, I'm seeing pretty strong evidence of a 60fps increase in MV between 40F and 65F. That's on the order of 2.5 fps per degree F.

I don't have much experience with the .223 cartridge. Are the smaller cartridges more prone to temperature caused changes in MV than larger cartridges? I don't see similar temperature swings causing anywhere near this rate on MV with two other Hodgdon Extreme powders - H1000 and Retumbo. But these two powders are used in 7mm RM and 300 WM capacity/size cartridges.

Anyone with experience using Varget for the .223 seeing similar temperature affects on MV? I've recorded enough MVs to be pretty certain about this, but if others aren't experiencing this, I've record some additional MV data at some additional temperatures.

 

[Kansaswoodguy]

I have read but have no data to know for sure but my understanding is the Hodgden extreme line of powders are only really less temp sensitive in rounds that particular powder is optimized for. This could very well be internet BS or right on the money I can't say for sure. I have had very good luck with IMR 8208 XBR in .223 and IMR 3031 can't really speak for the 8208 as far as temp sensitivity but the 3031 is for sure but still near my favorite for 50-55gr pills 21gr of 3031 with a 55gr pill is hard to beat for consistant sub MOA accuracy from multiple firearms.

 

[mikea5232]

what primer are you using? 26-26.9g of varget are those two different loads you shot at those two temps? I've only loaded a little bit of 223. But ive noticed and maybe its just me. but the extreme powders seem to ignite a bit harder than others so a hotter primer might be needed. So if you are using a cooler burning primer it might be igniting the powder better when its warmer. So you would have a bigger velocity swing. Hotter primers worked much better in the .223 with varget for me. Never shot through the chrony so i can not verify speed. Just a thought anyway.

 

[Pdvdh]

It's been a while since I was working hard on my 223 loads. However I have made the decision to move to Rem 7 1/2 primers in the future. I researched long and hard and came to the conclusion that I'm apt to be better served with the Rem 7 1/2s. I have no first hand experiences to report with that primer yet. Next time I send 223 rounds over my chronograph, they'll be ignited with Rem 7 1/2 primers. I'm hoping for reduced ES/SD at all temps, because my ES/SDs were quite high regardless of ambient temperature.

 

[Kansaswoodguy]

I would think Varget with its slow burn rate is not going to be a great powder for 55gr bullets in a 16" barrel. Try some CFE223 I've had very good luck with it out of AR's with 55gr pills. I have a great deal of difficulty getting below an SD of about 15 consistently out of a gas gun. I may shoot an SD under ten for three shots then I take the fourth shot and things go all sideways. AR's are much more difficult to get into the single digit SD's in my experience. I was shooting Sunday at 600 yards I had the first two shots touching then the third went about 2" high forth touching the first two then number five 2" low giving me three out of five touching at 600 yards but a 4" group it drives me ()$&@:;; crazy sometimes. I shot two five shot groups very similar to that before the rain drove me off the range.

 

[Pdvdh]

How good are Varget and CFE223 with 60gr bullets? I'm shooting 60gr Vmax bullets from a 16" barrel. Thanks for sounding in again...

If I was getting SDs near 15 I'd be a happy man compared to what I'm averaging. I'm was running way higher than that.

 

[Greyfox]

I use 25gr of Varget, 69gr SMK's, CCI Br4's, Lapua brass in my 20"-24" AR15's I have not found it to be temperature sensitive between 40F and 80F. ES <15FPS. I have also used Varget with bullet weights down to 55gr without temperature issues as well. Varget produces excellent accuracy in my AR's without cycling issues.

 

[Dosh]

FYI, CFE 223 is a bit slower than Varget per the Hodgdon published burn rate chart. I've used both in my grandson's .223 bolt rifle with great performance and never any temp instability. We've shot it from 40-110 degrees here in Az. 55 and 64 gr bullets.

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: AR15 Running High ES and SD

What I initially thought was temperature sensitive powder now appears to be high ES and SD in my AR15 - across three different powders. I'm beginning to think it is related to the AR15 gas gun.

Just so you don't think I'm a whiny butt based on minimal effort, the below data indicates some effort. I tried Varget, BL-(C)2, and Benchmark. Benchmark seemed to produce the lowest ES/SD so far, but only a little improvement compared to Varget and BL-(C)2. They're still higher than I'd prefer, even for plinking.

I tried the Rem 7 1/2 primers just once near the end of my testing, after reading that they're a good primer in 223 and also respected in competitive shoots. I ran 9 bullets across the chronographs and for 9 shots, it did show reduced ES and SD. Still nothing to brag about compared to bolt rifles, but enough improvement to spur my intention to rotate into the Rem 7 1/2 primers with my next purchase of primers.

What this effort demonstrated to me is the necessity of collecting more MVs than less, if you want to get a true idea of your loads ES/SD. Notice that the two lowest ES/SD were collected with only 4 MVs (4 shots). Simply not enough data to get the real picture of my ES/SDs. I think a minimum of ~12 MVs is required if a guy wants to have any confidence. Because look at the difference in ES/SD when 8 or fewer MV data were recorded. In a .223 - 12 shots is no big deal. In my 30 and 338 caliber magnums, it's a bigger deal in cost and wear & tear on my barrels, and ME.

Confidence in these chronographed MVs is very high. I shoot over a triplicate set of chronographs which provide me with 4 separate recorded MVs for each bullet fired. If the MV from any individual chronograph is off by more than 5fps from the other three readings, I don't use that anomalous MV. When you receive 4 MVs for each and every bullet fired, it's easy to identify which chronograph hiccuped, or puked out an erroneous MV.

Some of my AR-15 test data, 16" barrel, shooting the 60gr VMax bullet:
26.9gr BL-(C)2, Fed 205s, _ ES=101, SD=34 based on 6 MVs.
26.9gr BL-(C)2, Fed 205s, _ ES=47, SD=14 based on 8 MVs.
26.9gr BL-(C)2, Fed 205s, _ ES=77, SD=28 based on 8 MVs.
26.9gr BL-(C)2, Fed 205s, _ ES=81, SD=26 based on 5 MVs.
27.1gr BL-(C)2, Fed 205s, _ ES=79, SD=25 based on 5 MVs.

24.5gr Benchmark, Fed 205s, ES=56, SD=25, based on 4 MVs.
25.0gr Benchmark, Fed 205s, ES=10, SD=5, based on 4 MVs.
24.9gr Benchmark, Fed 205s, ES=87, SD=34, based on 6 MVs.
24.9gr Benchmark, Fed 205s, ES=40, SD=16, based on 6 MVs.
24.9gr Benchmark, Fed 205s, ES=52, SD=17, based on 6 MVs.
24.9gr Benchmark, Fed 205s, ES=38, SD=14, based on 5 MVs.
24.9gr Benchmark, Fed 205s, ES=44, SD=16, based on 8 MVs.
24.9gr Benchmark, Fed 205s, ES=89, SD=31, based on 6 MVs.
24.9gr Benchmark, Fed 205s, ES=44, SD=17, based on 6 MVs.
25.1gr Benchmark, Fed 205s, ES=54, SD=17, based on 7 MVs.
25.1gr Benchmark, Rem 7 1/2, ES=47, SD=13, based on 9 MVs. [Decent ES/SD based on the 9 shots fired.]

26.7gr Varget, Fed 205s, _ ES=48, SD=15, based on 8 MVs.
26.7gr Varget, Fed 205s, _ ES=88, SD=24, based on 9 MVs.
26.7gr Varget, Fed 205s, _ ES=93, SD=42, based on 4 MVs.
26.8gr Varget, Fed 205s, _ ES=41, SD=13, based on 8 MVs.
26.8gr Varget, Fed 205s, _ ES=49, SD=19, based on 8 MVs.
26.8gr Varget, Fed 205s, _ ES=22, SD=9, based on 4 MVs.

 

[Kansaswoodguy]

I use CFE223 with 55gr vmax and IMR 8208 with 75-77gr if you get in the low teens for SD your there dude about as good as it gets in a gasser. I'll pull off a single digit SD once in a while for 5 shots but that 6th one will kill it. A gasser is not a bolt gun and typically your not going to shoot 10 shot groups with single digit SD's. Their are guys that claim to own a AR capable of it and I'm sure there are some guns that can. I own 8 AR's and none of them can do it consistently. I have Lother Walther, DPMS, WOA, and Kreiger barrels in the mix. I love AR's but a bolt gun they are not. I will say I have all the powders you listed and don't use any of them because the two I listed are more accurate in the majority of my guns. Bl-(c)2 and Win 748 are in my opinion the same powder neither gave me great accuracy. Ive only tried a pound each of Varget and Benchmark so take that for what it's worth.

 

[Pdvdh]

I use CFE223 with 55gr vmax and IMR 8208 with 75-77gr if you get in the low teens for SD you're there - - about as good as it gets in a gasser.

I own 8 AR's and none of them can do it consistently. I have Lother Walther, DPMS, WOA, and Kreiger barrels in the mix. I love AR's but a bolt gun they are not.

I've only tried a pound each of Varget and Benchmark so take that for what it's worth.

That's what I was looking for. Experienced critique of ES/SD with gas operated ARs. Well it looks like I've arrived in the promised land with Benchmark powder. All three of the powders I used gave me good precision (groups) - for my use of the rifle. I was striving for lower ES.

I'll still test a little further with Rem 7 1/2 primers, based on what I've read and based on my single 9-shot firing yielding lower ES/SD than the Fed 205s in all other tests of 5 or more shots using Benchmark. Thanks again.

 

[Pdvdh]

I use CFE223 with 55gr vmax and IMR 8208 with 75-77gr if you get in the low teens for SD your there dude about as good as it gets in a gasser. I'll pull off a single digit SD once in a while for 5 shots but that 6th one will kill it. A gasser is not a bolt gun and typically your not going to shoot 10 shot groups with single digit SD's.

So I tried CFE223 and Rem 7 1/2s with Nosler 64gr Bonded Solid Base bullets. I measured a very substantial reduction in ES/SD, once I got the pressures up to a healthy level. I tried this combination based on a couple extensive posts from other forums with these exact ingredients. I'd more or less given up on reducing ES substantially with any powder, so what a pleasant surprise and improvement. I've already shot and recorded enough MVs with CFE223/Rem 7 1/2s to know lowered ES is for real. ES is reduced to about 1/3 of what measured with the other three powders and Federal 205s.

Now the accuracy of the Nosler 64gr BSB bullet isn't terrific, but I didn't expect it to perform up with the 60gr Vmax. I'm loading the Nosler bullet for other purposes - where top accuracy isn't essential.

I've loaded some 60gr Vmax with CFE223 and Rem 7 1/2s and look forward to shooting them when the weather moderated a bit this spring. Expecting both good accuracy and lowered ES.

 

[tbrice23]

I personally appreciate your research and data, I realize the effort it takes.
I'm new to loading an ar15 but in my limited experience I've found Alliant AR Comp to be slightly better in accuracy, velocity and ES than Varget ( and using Rem 7 1/2 primers ). I've had very similar results in my LR308. I would not hesitate suggesting it with .