Handloading impact on accuracy with a load that a rifle doesn’t like? And average behaviour of factory rifles with factory ammo

[simone]

Hi guys, i have a couple questions.
1) handloading: can a proper load development turn a 2 MOA group into a sub MOA one using a given projectile? For example, let's pretend a rifle is shooting hornady precision hunter with a eld-x bullet 2 MOA. If i take my time developing a handload, is it reasonable to expect that i will be able to achieve sub-MOA or even sub-half-MOA accuracy with a load using the same eld-x ball but with a different primer/powder/case/depth? I have a rifle which is capable of sub-Moa accuracy but not with the projectile i want to use hunting, that's why i am asking. I admit my total ignorance in the hanoading world.
2) most rifle have quite a bit of difference in accuracy with factory ammo they like and factory ammo they dislike. In my experience, for example, if a try 10 factory loads with a factory rifle, two or three will be shot very well (0.3-1 MOA), two or three very bad (3 MOA or slightly more) and the others are between 1.5 and 2.5 MOA. I am talking about hunting bullets. This is my experience with the rifles i know very well (i had 6 or 7 i got to know very well cause they have been or still are my hunting guns). Does this reflects your experience, too? If no, what is your experience in this regard?

Ciao a tutti amici
Simone

 

[RB II]

I reset the seating depth on 200 factory loads for my 22-250. I found a source for factory ammo that was same or less than I could buy components and reload it. Basically I did load development on a factory load, found the seating depth that the rifle liked best for that load and reset all 200. Pulled the bullets just enough to be long enough to be reset to the depth I wanted. Same factory brass, primer and powder, just a different seating depth.
Went from MOA + to -3/4 MOA. And in several 5 shot groups I was seeing 1/2" at 100 yds. Good enough for hunting prairie dogs.

 

[birddog 68]

I have a rifle which is capable of sub-Moa accuracy but not with the projectile i want to use hunting, that's why i am asking.

I have realized that what I want to use and what my rifle wanted to shoot were sometimes not the same.
During load work ups if I am only getting 2" groups I will make a powder change and try again, if it's still bad I will continue searching for a bullet my rifle likes instead of me.
Question 2. Same experience. You can use this experience to decide what to reload since your rifle has told you what it likes!

 

[simone]

I reset the seating depth on 200 factory loads for my 22-250. I found a source for factory ammo that was same or less than I could buy components and reload it. Basically I did load development on a factory load, found the seating depth that the rifle liked best for that load and reset all 200. Pulled the bullets just enough to be long enough to be reset to the depth I wanted. Same factory brass, primer and powder, just a different seating depth.
Went from MOA + to -3/4 MOA. And in several 5 shot groups I was seeing 1/2" at 100 yds. Good enough for hunting prairie dogs.

That's a big increase in accuracy. Interesting. What do you mean by MOA + in this specific case?

 

[simone]

I have realized that what I want to use and what my rifle wanted to shoot were sometimes not the same.
During load work ups if I am only getting 2" groups I will make a powder change and try again, if it's still bad I will continue searching for a bullet my rifle likes instead of me.
Question 2. Same experience. You can use this experience to decide what to reload since your rifle has told you what it likes!

Interesting. So this new .308 rifle i bought, despite i tried only 4 factory loads, didn't perform as well as i would like. The best group i got was 0.8 MOA with cheap geco soft points, awful groups with hornady precision hunter, awful groups with geco plus, good groups with winchester ballistic silvertips (1 MOA, but the rifle was hot and i had to shoot it angway cause the range was closing). Now i will try better with the winchesters and i will try 165 accubonds. Also the barrel is basically new (35 rounds through it. Could the accuracy increase significantly after some other boxes of ammo? It is a button rifled barrel

 

[birddog 68]

Could the accuracy increase significantly after some other boxes of ammo?

I have had velocity increase after 100-150 rounds but never had accuracy increases utilizing the same ammo. I have read about others having it happen but not me.
Normally you can decrease group size of factory ammo by reloading the same bullets but customizing the powder charge amongst other things specifically for your rifle. Any good hand loading manual will explain how to do this. Plenty of information on LRH also.

 

[RB II]

That's a big increase in accuracy. Interesting. What do you mean by MOA + in this specific case?

More that 1" groups at 100 yds. The ammo basically went from 1 1/2" or so at 100 yds to less than 3/4" at 100 yds by reseating the bullets to a different depth.

 

[Mikecr]

I think you'll need to search around for factory ammo that it likes. Or replace the barrel.
I know it's painful, I've done it, but many guns just don't shoot. It's a big roll of the dice with factory guns.

 

[memtb]

Simone, I may have missed this being said or suggested by another member……but, has the rifle been proven with another bullet/load/ bullet manufacturer to be capable of sub moa groups?

Perhaps you have a rifle that needs tuning or simply …..a rifle that just doesn't want to shoot! memtb

 

[simone]

Simone, I may have missed this being said or suggested by another member……but, has the rifle been proven with another bullet/load/ bullet manufacturer to be capable of sub moa groups?

Perhaps you have a rifle that needs tuning or simply …..a rifle that just doesn't want to shoot! memtb

Yes, it shoots more or less MOA with winchester ballistic silvertip (but i tried them when the barrel was pretty hot so i have to try them again) and it shoots sub MOA (i have to try this better also) with cheap geco softpoints (those ammo are amazing, almost all my 308s shoot them sub MOA). the rifle has had only 30 rounds through it so it could be early too see its full accuracy potential

 

[nksmfamjp]

Thanks for the questions.

Accuracy is the combination of the load, the rifle, the shooter capability and the rest.

So often folks will discount everything but the rifle or in the next post everything, but the load.

With good shooter, rifle, rest, the load can make a big impact.

Can every 2 moa load be tuned under 1moa? No. I think trying every factory load will get you 90% of the available accuracy. I also think few handloaders find much better than 90% of potential accuracy. Most are probably not shooting enough rounds to know what accuracy they are getting

For starters, is your rest solid but also adjustable? Can you get a solid position without pushing the rifle around?

Is the rifle and optic solid? What best groups have been shot? With what bullet?

If you are really at 2moa, I'd try a few more different types of factory ammo, unless I really wanted to handload.

In just the load, long range accuracy(group dispersion) is a combination of group size(load tune) at 100, Sd of load, temp stability, bc, and consistency of your product. Most of those can be "tuned" without really excellent shooting. Great shooting and tuning can really dial in that last bit!

 

[MagnumManiac]

Well, this is a conundrum many, including myself, have been faced with.
The question whether or not the rifle CAN be persuaded to shoot smaller with hand loads is always a mystery. My first suggestion in this scenario is to have the bore and chamber borescoped to see if it is rough, burred or just non concentric…my 22-250 is, but shoots well enough.
I have a set of parameters I normally try when handloading for a new cartridge, firstly, knowing that Nosler Ballistic Tips shoot very well in many cals, I try these, or Sierra, up front. If it groups well with these, then yes, handloading will probably make a difference.
The other thing is, have you shot enough rounds to season the barrel yet? This may change as the barrel wears in.
Some rifles are finicky, regardless of how good you make the ammo, have seen a factory 257 Roberts that would not group well with ANY bullet heavier than 100g, even Sierra 117g GK were woeful, at first we thought it was twist rate, but no, twist was 1:10".
Maybe your rifle will be similar, only liking 150g or 165g pills.
I see you have only 30 rounds fired, see what happens after the 100th round.

Cheers.

 

[floppy]

Hi guys, i have a couple questions.
1) handloading: can a proper load development turn a 2 MOA group into a sub MOA one using a given projectile? For example, let's pretend a rifle is shooting hornady precision hunter with a eld-x bullet 2 MOA. If i take my time developing a handload, is it reasonable to expect that i will be able to achieve sub-MOA or even sub-half-MOA accuracy with a load using the same eld-x ball but with a different primer/powder/case/depth? I have a rifle which is capable of sub-Moa accuracy but not with the projectile i want to use hunting, that's why i am asking. I admit my total ignorance in the hanoading world.
2) most rifle have quite a bit of difference in accuracy with factory ammo they like and factory ammo they dislike. In my experience, for example, if a try 10 factory loads with a factory rifle, two or three will be shot very well (0.3-1 MOA), two or three very bad (3 MOA or slightly more) and the others are between 1.5 and 2.5 MOA. I am talking about hunting bullets. This is my experience with the rifles i know very well (i had 6 or 7 i got to know very well cause they have been or still are my hunting guns). Does this reflects your experience, too? If no, what is your experience in this regard?

Ciao a tutti amici
Simone

Hope this helps.
When starting load development with a new rifle, I'll go to Hodgdons and copy the load data for the caliber and bullet weight that I'm shooting. I go to my available powder. In this case there were 11 powders.
Next is to choose a very safe level of powder and to load three rounds of each powder with the bullet that I'm using. In the case of the last rifle loaded I was limited to mag length which put me .134 off of the lands using 150 grain Power Hammers.
Of the 11 powders 4 showed promise. Loaded again using those 4 powders with 2/10th under and over the target load. For accurate powder loads, all of these loads are verified by weighing on a second and separate scale. Only two repeated the same accuracy or better. Picked IMR4064 at 2/10th over original targeted load which resulted in a sub .5 group.
Total bullets used 69.

 

[C-130 Dude]

Well, this is a conundrum many, including myself, have been faced with.
The question whether or not the rifle CAN be persuaded to shoot smaller with hand loads is always a mystery. My first suggestion in this scenario is to have the bore and chamber borescoped to see if it is rough, burred or just non concentric…my 22-250 is, but shoots well enough.
I have a set of parameters I normally try when handloading for a new cartridge, firstly, knowing that Nosler Ballistic Tips shoot very well in many cals, I try these, or Sierra, up front. If it groups well with these, then yes, handloading will probably make a difference.
The other thing is, have you shot enough rounds to season the barrel yet? This may change as the barrel wears in.
Some rifles are finicky, regardless of how good you make the ammo, have seen a factory 257 Roberts that would not group well with ANY bullet heavier than 100g, even Sierra 117g GK were woeful, at first we thought it was twist rate, but no, twist was 1:10".
Maybe your rifle will be similar, only liking 150g or 165g pills.
I see you have only 30 rounds fired, see what happens after the 100th round.

Cheers.

I always do 100 rounds for break-in. Using 5 fired then clean x6. 10 fired then clean x7. Scubbed well each cleaning. Then, do a couple of foulers after break-in just prior to checking out your new load workup. I wait 5 minutes between my 5 shot groups, Using a barrel cooler to help. If I'm on track, this usually gets me close to where I need to be. Then I start fine tuning after I find a promising group. It can take some time, and money and sometimes I have to change components if things go haywire. But I never change components in the middle of a specific test string. Skews the results. And down the rabbit hole I go........