1. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    We who live in Washington state are facing an initiative , 594, which is so unbelievably unrealistic and damaging to our constitution that I have trouble believing that this could happen in this country. It is 18 pages of rules and regulations regarding ownership and primarily transfer of firearms by private citizens. Background checks will be required for all gun sales, and you have to go to a dealer to have them call for the background check, and they are allowed to charge whatever fee they wish to do this for you. Guns cannot be loaned. If your best buddy wants to try out your rifle on a hunt, even if he is hunting with you, you are both in violation of the law, subject to a fine and jail term, and the gun will be confiscated without compensation. If you buy a new rifle and take it out in your front yard to show it to your neighbor, and you hand the gun to him to look at, you are both in violation of the law and subject to fines and prison terms and the gun will be confiscated without any compensation. Both of these examples constitute a transference of ownership even though no money changes hands and the "transference" may last about five minutes. Other people may not sight in your gun for you at the range. There are 18 pages of rules that are just this ridiculous. I knew this was going to be bad, but I got a chance to read the whole initiative earlier this week, and had to sit down in utter disbelief. This legislation now leads in the polls by 70%, so it is going to pass. Our only hope is initiative 591, which essentially cancels out everything in 594, Oddly enough, it shows to also be winning. I am not sure how this works. I do know that gun ownership in Washington is about to change forever. After reading the text, I am not sure there is a legal way to own a gun here, and there sure isn't a legal way to sell one. I f you live here, I am sure you will not vote for this; I am pounding facebook to death with facts the anti supporters conveniently leave out, like the two most powerful law enforcement agencies in WA have come out against this legislation, but no one is listening. If you have relatives here, call them and see if you can exert some influence. Thanks.

    My apologies if I put this in the wrong place...it really did not fit anywhere.
     
  2. FearNoWind

    FearNoWind Well-Known Member

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    According to a recent news article (Bill Gates and his wife give $1 million to gun control push | WHNT.com) lots of very wealthy folks, including Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer, have contributed at least a total of 5.8 million dollars to Washington Alliance for Gun Responsibility. Makes those of us in California, who often feel like we're the gun control whipping boy for the rest of the world, feel like we have a brotherhood with you up there in the north. If it's money that's going to win the fight - which it appears is the focal point of all those who contribute to anit-gun campaigns - then you'd probably have better luck in gaining support by contributing to those organizations who support or position. NRA, NRA Civil Rights Defense Fund, and any other legitimate group you'd care to support. There is a lot of money behind the anti-gunners ....
     
  3. jfseaman

    jfseaman Well-Known Member

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    So goes California, so goes the Nation.
     
  4. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    You are right. All the big money in WA is behind this. But our real threat is ignorance. This initiative is so radical, that any sane citizen who reads it will not vote for it. The problem is that it is 18 pages long, and the ignorant anti-gunners are just listening to the people who are saying that this will reduce crime and that is all they hear, all they want to hear, and all they will base their vote on. Really, how could any rational human being want to fine, send to jail and confiscate a new gun from someone who is just showing it to his neighbors? But all the anti's that vote for this will not even know that language is in there. The NRA is already getting involved, and we do have the chance that 591 will also pass, completely negating 594. 594 has a current 70% approval, 591 has only a 55% approval. But we have a long ways to go, and we have a lot of support from law enforcement organizations including Washington state sheriffs. It is slim, but we have a little hope.
     
  5. Barrelnut

    Barrelnut Well-Known Member

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    Oregonians are watching this. Now days it's kinda like so goes WA so goes OR...

    This bill is just like the anti-hunters with the no dogs/bait for bear and cougar and a wolf in every backyard. They pick a state, pool the money, and make it happen. They are slowly chipping away.

    They are killing a noble way of life that our ancestors have used for many thousands of years to put food on the table. My heart is somehow kind of drawn to it and I feel that it is a humans biological right to be able to hunt if it chooses. Tell it like that and they might just put us on the same pedestal as the wolf and allow us to go on our way.

    Anyway back to the bill... You are right it is not about keeping people safe and keeping guns away from criminals. It is just another chip toward the ultimate goal of confiscation, removing the 2nd amendment, and making America a gunless society.
    All anyone has to do is look at a society like Swedens and they can see, it's not the guns, it's the society and America's is just incredibly screwed up.

    OP - I think you can ask the Admin to move this thread to the political forum.
     
  6. Barrelnut

    Barrelnut Well-Known Member

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    Just saw where Bloomberg put his 1 million on the WA initiative, Maybe he should save his money and buy the white house. That's the whole problem with this country the rich own it now and make the laws. Oddly enough, that is the hallmark of a third world country (which the USA is fast becoming). A concentration of wealth with the masses having no real influence.
     
  7. FearNoWind

    FearNoWind Well-Known Member

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    We can complain here all we want and it won't win the battle. Gather a bunch of friends and spend some time on the street with a copy of the initiative in hand and be prepared to explain every detail of it.
    Get some money behind advertising that exposes the core of the proposed legislation without name calling and grandstanding. Advertising that simply states the facts and encourages the voter to read the proposed law.
    People may be lazy, but they're not stupid. Tell them where to look for themselves. The informed voter is the best tool you have in this fight. Sitting on our hands and whining about how unfair all of it is assures that the fight will be lost.
     
  8. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    Fear No Wind: What you are suggesting is what I am trying to do on FB, but my audience is limited unless people will share the post. I am urging people to vote against this, and I have a minor bit of influence on my FB friends since the vast majority of my FB friends are my ex-students who had a lot of respect for me when I was teaching. But my primary focus is just to get people to educate themselves by reading the entire initiative and talking to friends and relatives who may be hunters or hobby shooters and get the facts. This legislation was debated at the latest session of our legislature and voted down in both houses, so the anti's decided to take it to the people. If it passes, and something huge will have to happen to stop it, there is some hope down the road. The Washington initiative process puts a semi-sunset clause on anything that passes. The state legislature has to obey the decision of the people for two years, but after that, they can modify or negate any part or all of it. But if it passes with a 70% majority, it is not likely the legislature will overturn anything that is that popular, although they may be willing to tone it down a little. We currently have quite liberal gun laws here...I believe I read somewhere that we are number 5 of 50. We have the chance that 591 will also pass, although it stands at 55% favorable at this point, and it would totally negate 594, essentially creating a standoff, and even if 594 wins with a 70% yes, it only takes 50.1% for 591 to win and negate 594. It is still early, and early polls seldom are very accurate when it gets to November, so a lot could still change, either way, however. Our last chance would be the courts, and considering the extremely radical language in this initiative, we could stand a real chance of getting it overturned in the courts. I cannot imagine any court considering the handing of a gun to your neighbor to look at and then immediately taking it back as a crime as anything related to reasonable. This was clearly written not by people who want to reduce crime, it was written by people who clearly have mental problems with any guns in any situation.
     
  9. Packrat 6

    Packrat 6 Well-Known Member

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    I have forwarded your statement to my whole family in WA. State and since my Daughter-in-law is a active member of a PAC, in Olympia, the state capitol, will ensure that she is aware of the consequences of the initiative and see what I can do to help...Maybe just a donation, but it may be all that is required. Maybe not.

    Makes me wonder what I'm going to be going back to when we move back in April of next year from Arizona where the gun laws are slightly looser. :D When we were up there last month, one of the radio stations was crowing about Seattle being voted the 2nd or 3rd most Liberal City in the U.S, and they were celebrating the somewhat dubious honor on the air. In addition, from what I have heard, as far as statistics, most of the political attitude surveys are taken in Seattle, not Olympia or Spokane and usually not at all in eastern Washington. This may influence the 70% in favor statistic that was mentioned. Need to check the population overall and see if King County has enough voters itself to carry the initiative.

    I wouldn't be moving back at all except my wife developed an allergy to Mesquite and Palo Verde Trees which grow wild here, and my kids and grandkids want us back closer to them.

    We are voting in Arizona in November on Proposition 122 which says essentially" The Federal government can pass any law it wants, but if it is deemed unconstitutional by the Arizona State legislature, the state of Arizona is, by law, not allowed to fund the Federal law with State funds or personnel to enforce that law". So far about 80% of the population are in favor of slapping the feds again.:)

    Anyway, will see what I can do and am backing it up with my checkbook.

    Bruce
     
  10. jfseaman

    jfseaman Well-Known Member

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    Apathy and ignorance of the masses.

    Read carefully, I have great respect of LE in the field. Every time I needed LE, they did what should have been done.

    The rights infringing laws and regulations are presented as public safety or first responder safety. That keeps the NRA off balance. Like the CA approved list. It definitely infringes but with law enforcement officer safety in the act, no support for a constitutional challenge.

    The masses are convinced by the campaign that it won't affect them. So it's passed. Then, when joe public is confronted with an armed attacker the wait is 45 minutes. Hmmm, by the time LE arrives the attacker is gone, all safe for LE officer. Reduced LE injured on the job, lower cost to the state. This is a construct of the state, not LE.

    Truth though, the only firearms pointed at me in anger/duty were LE. Of course one was the infamous Rampart District. The other, the similar San Diego county sheriff's. Both Have been 'reformed' since. Umm, right.
     
  11. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    Bruce: thanks for the help you are giving all of us here in WA. You are dead on when you say Seattle is the key. The ultra-liberal Seattleites are always the deciding factor on almost any initiative. Two years ago I watched all the returns coming in, and our gay marriage and the legalization of marijuana were well on their way to defeat as the sparsely populated and very conservative Eastern Washington votes were coming in very early and opposing both initiatives en masse. Being heavily populated, it is not unusual for the Seattle votes to take until the next day to be fully counted. Their liberal votes passed both the above mentioned initiatives, although not by large margins as I recall. From Bellingham to the North all the way to south Tacoma, the vote on this will be an overwhelming yes. North of Bellingham is farm country and very good duck and goose hunting, and there are a lot of gun people up there. Between Bellingham and the Canadian border is the only rifle range available to the public as far as I know. Our only other range is a hotline and you cannot retrieve your targets which pretty much eliminates any handloaders from even using it. There is one other 200 yard range, but the facilities are pathetic and the memberships are $200. We pretty much have to rely on gravel pits to do our shooting here. I would guess Whatcom County, which is everything north of Bellingham will be a push. Although there are a lot of rifle and trapshooters there, there is also the manically ultra religious groups of Lynden with a population of about 15,000, and my guess is they will support 594. South of Bellingham is Mt. Vernon, Burlington, Sedro-Woolly, and Stanwood, all of which are split...lots of liberals, lots of conservatives. Eastern Skagit county is a hotbed of illegal pot growers, and the deer hunters around here, including me, usually carry handguns in case they stumble into a five acre pot field guarded by scary guys with AK's. So I think this area will essentially non-players in the decision since the vote will be 50-50. South of us is the Seattle through Tacoma, and they will be making the decision. But surprises do happen. Crime in Seattle is high and a ton of people have CC permits, so it is hard to predict whether they will view this initiative as a way to get better protection from LE making their CC permits unnecessary, or whether they will intelligently view this as even more evidence supporting their need for a CC permit. I don't know how this will all shake out in the end. We have had good support from both houses of the legislature over the years, passing "must grant" laws on CC permits, passing "Stand your ground" legislation, passing legislation to allow suppressors, etc., and they are not going to be happy if all that goes down the drain if 594 passes. My current take on this is that 594 will pass, 591 will be close but will fail, and we will have to live with this for two years at which time the legislature will take most of the teeth out of it with the exception of the paragraphs that pertain to handguns. If it passes and stands as is, we will be the most restrictive gun law state in the Union with the possible exception of New York. From 5 to 49 is a long, hard drop. So if any of you have any relatives or know anyone in Washington that you can reason (as Bruce did) with to vote against this, thousands of people will be grateful. I considered liquidating almost all of my collection prior to the date this will take effect, but decided to ride it out and see what happens down the road. Thanks for listening.
     
  12. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    I just read that the Seattle Times readers are weighing in heavily opposed to 594. That shocked me. Maybe they are more enlightened than I give the credit for.
     
  13. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to keep bothering you all, but I just got the latest polls on 594 and 591. 594 has gained 2% at 72 % favorable; 591 has remained at 55% pro. But, it only take 50% plus one vote on 591 to sink 594.
     
  14. Packrat 6

    Packrat 6 Well-Known Member

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    Teacher,

    I talked to my Daughter in law this afternoon and she told me that they were totally unaware of what was happening in regards to this initiative. Said she had some discussions with my son and some others that they'd get behind and push it out into the common consciousness once everyone had read it.

    Told her a check would be on the way and she said first they had to get together and figure out the best angle of attack. Also said that with an out of state check (10 day hold), she'd just trust me that it was on the way and would go ahead and cover it until it cleared....:D

    Not much, but a start.

    Just for the record, I'm an Orange County, California boy born and raised back when California was almost all Agriculture. I married a Girl from Yakima before I shipped out of Fort Lewis, Washington with the 4th Infantry Division in 1966 as a Recon Sergeant on a Forward Observer team to Viet Nam. Fell in love with the state and the family lived in Redmond, I commuted weekly to Fort Lewis when not overseas.

    RE: Bill Gates. We lived there (Redmond) when Microsoft started and I remember listening to some people in Denny's in Bellevue along the 520 (?) Freeway to Seattle talking about Bill Gates lack of Personal hygiene. Seems he had to be told to take a shower and wash his hair quite frequently. Supposedly and hopefully, his wife straightened that out before she married him. I think she is the actual power and liberal in the family and leads him around by the ....Nose?

    So keep the coffee on and you'll be seeing us sometime in the next 6 Months and if necessary, will just have to kick ass. I don't bother taking names anymore, there have been too many to remember. :)

    Bruce