I am new to archery however I am the proud owner of a Tac 15i cross bow. I bought a Bitzenburger Fletching Jig to repair many of my damage arrows. When I install the fletching should it be parallel with the shaft or a slight angle to the length of the shaft ? Paul
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Fletching Tac 15i arrows
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jon.henry755
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Hi Paul,
The slight degree of angle you mentioned is better known as a Straight Offset in archer terms. When fletching the TAC15 arrows the manufacturer only uses a perfectly straight fletch. This means no offset on your Bitzenburger Jig at all.
In order to achieve the proper spacing between each vane you would need to be using a special nock receiver in the Fletching Jig. It's Bitzenburger nock receiver #3012 I believe. This nock receiver when installed will provide vane spacing' of 60 degrees x 120 degrees. The standard nock receiver is only capable of spacing the vanes at 90 degrees on each vane. This will not work on the TAC15 because your vanes will make contact with your upper Weaver Rail and you'll end up with a number of problems. The optional nock receiver can be ordered directly from Bitzenburger at about $18.
Make sure you are using a premium quality fast set cement on your vanes and before starting any vane placements make sure that you pre-wipe your arrow shaft and vane base with Acetone on a clean cloth. Do not bypass this step if you want your vanes to stay on the shafts on a long term basis.
Also, once you get a very thin amount of glue on your vane and get it positioned in the clamp and down on your arrow shaft, I'd recommend you apply a small amount of extra downward pressure with your hand on top of the clamp. This added pressure forcing the vane more tightly against the arrow shaft for about two minutes will dramatically increase the strength of the bond.
By using more downward pressure with a fresh good quality glue you can change the bond strength from 200 or 300 pounds of strength to 6,000 - 7,000 pounds of strength.
I haven't lost a single vane from one of my arrows in over 3,000 shots by using the above fletching method.
Regards,
Jon Henry
The slight degree of angle you mentioned is better known as a Straight Offset in archer terms. When fletching the TAC15 arrows the manufacturer only uses a perfectly straight fletch. This means no offset on your Bitzenburger Jig at all.
In order to achieve the proper spacing between each vane you would need to be using a special nock receiver in the Fletching Jig. It's Bitzenburger nock receiver #3012 I believe. This nock receiver when installed will provide vane spacing' of 60 degrees x 120 degrees. The standard nock receiver is only capable of spacing the vanes at 90 degrees on each vane. This will not work on the TAC15 because your vanes will make contact with your upper Weaver Rail and you'll end up with a number of problems. The optional nock receiver can be ordered directly from Bitzenburger at about $18.
Make sure you are using a premium quality fast set cement on your vanes and before starting any vane placements make sure that you pre-wipe your arrow shaft and vane base with Acetone on a clean cloth. Do not bypass this step if you want your vanes to stay on the shafts on a long term basis.
Also, once you get a very thin amount of glue on your vane and get it positioned in the clamp and down on your arrow shaft, I'd recommend you apply a small amount of extra downward pressure with your hand on top of the clamp. This added pressure forcing the vane more tightly against the arrow shaft for about two minutes will dramatically increase the strength of the bond.
By using more downward pressure with a fresh good quality glue you can change the bond strength from 200 or 300 pounds of strength to 6,000 - 7,000 pounds of strength.
I haven't lost a single vane from one of my arrows in over 3,000 shots by using the above fletching method.
Regards,
Jon Henry
Twanger
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the great advice Jon!
I've been generating a huge pile of Tac15 arrows (20) that have been through a deer and will soon need to start re-fletching them.
It's tempting to reuse some of them, only slightly wavy vanes, or only one or two wavy vanes.
I'm found that slightly wavy vanes are DEATH on accuracy out at 100 yards, but I can live with it inside 40 yards.
I've been generating a huge pile of Tac15 arrows (20) that have been through a deer and will soon need to start re-fletching them.
It's tempting to reuse some of them, only slightly wavy vanes, or only one or two wavy vanes.
I'm found that slightly wavy vanes are DEATH on accuracy out at 100 yards, but I can live with it inside 40 yards.
jon.henry755
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Hi Twanger,
Yup, I couldn't agree more with your insights. For hunting purposes doing just some minor repairs is all that's needed. Especially when one considers how short the average shot from a treestand actually is.
If you ever need to refletch the entire arrow (all vanes), I've found a method that's unbelievably easy. Consider this method:
1. Remove the nocks from each arrow shaft.
2. Get a very thin glass jar about 6" high and very narrow. Fill it with Acetone
just high enough that when an arrow is placed inside it, vanes down, it will
completely cover your arrows vanes.
3. Place one arrow in the jar and lean the top of the arrow against a wall or
cabinet or something that will prevent it from tipping over and let stand for
20 or 30 minutes.
4. At the end of the 30 minute soak time, you'll notice that your old vanes are
probably laying in the bottom of the jar, if not just lift them off and wipe
down your arrow shaft with a cloth to clean off any remaining residue. In a
worst case scenario you might need to dip the end of your cloth into the jar
to rub a little Acetone on any remaining glue, but not usually.
5. Allow the shafts 20 minutes to dry and re-install the nocks as before and
begin fletching your arrows.
This soaking process has simplified the task of having to scrap, peel and clean old vanes and residues from the arrow shaft, so it's as simple as if you were building new arrows from scratch.
It further eliminates the concern about getting the vane spacings exactly correct, which is always a concern when doing repair work.
Although I have and use Dorge's AG0600 Fletching Cement on all Firenock Shafts, I also use a glue by G5 called G-Lock BLU-GLU on all my other arrows. I've been using it for the past two years with outstanding results. BLU-GLU is easy to find and less expensive. Even when using my Aerojig, I apply extra downward pressure on the JIG Clamp during the gluing process, so my vanes are bonded with several thousand pounds of bonding force.
Straight Shooting and good luck!
Jon
Yup, I couldn't agree more with your insights. For hunting purposes doing just some minor repairs is all that's needed. Especially when one considers how short the average shot from a treestand actually is.
If you ever need to refletch the entire arrow (all vanes), I've found a method that's unbelievably easy. Consider this method:
1. Remove the nocks from each arrow shaft.
2. Get a very thin glass jar about 6" high and very narrow. Fill it with Acetone
just high enough that when an arrow is placed inside it, vanes down, it will
completely cover your arrows vanes.
3. Place one arrow in the jar and lean the top of the arrow against a wall or
cabinet or something that will prevent it from tipping over and let stand for
20 or 30 minutes.
4. At the end of the 30 minute soak time, you'll notice that your old vanes are
probably laying in the bottom of the jar, if not just lift them off and wipe
down your arrow shaft with a cloth to clean off any remaining residue. In a
worst case scenario you might need to dip the end of your cloth into the jar
to rub a little Acetone on any remaining glue, but not usually.
5. Allow the shafts 20 minutes to dry and re-install the nocks as before and
begin fletching your arrows.
This soaking process has simplified the task of having to scrap, peel and clean old vanes and residues from the arrow shaft, so it's as simple as if you were building new arrows from scratch.
It further eliminates the concern about getting the vane spacings exactly correct, which is always a concern when doing repair work.
Although I have and use Dorge's AG0600 Fletching Cement on all Firenock Shafts, I also use a glue by G5 called G-Lock BLU-GLU on all my other arrows. I've been using it for the past two years with outstanding results. BLU-GLU is easy to find and less expensive. Even when using my Aerojig, I apply extra downward pressure on the JIG Clamp during the gluing process, so my vanes are bonded with several thousand pounds of bonding force.
Straight Shooting and good luck!
Jon
Twanger
Well-Known Member
You are a wealth of knowledge Jon!
I've been painstakingly scraping the glue from shafts for years.
I always worry about how much carbon I'm messing up, and if I damaged the arrow. Also, they never are as clean as a fresh bare shaft.
Great idea!lightbulb
I've been painstakingly scraping the glue from shafts for years.
I always worry about how much carbon I'm messing up, and if I damaged the arrow. Also, they never are as clean as a fresh bare shaft.
Great idea!lightbulb
jon.henry755
Well-Known Member
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Hi Twanger,
I can't snd won't shoot a store bought factory arrow shaft because I'm way to demanding about matching spine and arrow weights, so like you I hate scraping off vanes or feathers and taking a chance on damaging the carbon.
They say necessity is the mother of invention. I disagree totally! I say its laziness; at least in my case it is.
I was tired of the old process and the tedious amount of work that went into it, but yet I was often forced for testing purposes to change vane sizes or profiles or the number of vanes on each shaft or sometimes the degree of offset, so I had to find an easier, cleaner way to do the job.
If you're not in a hurry let the shafts with nocks removed sit in the Acetone for 30 or 40 minutes. When you return, you'll find all of your vanes sitting in the bottom of the jar and all you'll have are bare shafts. Wipe them down well with a clean rag and let them stand for 15 minutes before beginning your new fletching job.
If you are into a more dressed up arrow, apply a nice arrow wrap of your choice and then do your fletching job over top of the arrow wraps.
Regards,
Jon
I can't snd won't shoot a store bought factory arrow shaft because I'm way to demanding about matching spine and arrow weights, so like you I hate scraping off vanes or feathers and taking a chance on damaging the carbon.
They say necessity is the mother of invention. I disagree totally! I say its laziness; at least in my case it is.
I was tired of the old process and the tedious amount of work that went into it, but yet I was often forced for testing purposes to change vane sizes or profiles or the number of vanes on each shaft or sometimes the degree of offset, so I had to find an easier, cleaner way to do the job.
If you're not in a hurry let the shafts with nocks removed sit in the Acetone for 30 or 40 minutes. When you return, you'll find all of your vanes sitting in the bottom of the jar and all you'll have are bare shafts. Wipe them down well with a clean rag and let them stand for 15 minutes before beginning your new fletching job.
If you are into a more dressed up arrow, apply a nice arrow wrap of your choice and then do your fletching job over top of the arrow wraps.
Regards,
Jon
Attachments
Twanger
Well-Known Member
Very nice work!
I have taken to wrapping a piece of white reflective tape between the nock and fletching, and a red one in front of the fletching. A dab of thin superglue at the seam and a shot of accelerator to lock it down so it does not flap after launch.
It really helps you find your arrows after dark, particluarly if you've shot 2 or 3 deer and can't quite remember, precisely, where all the arrows flew.
I have taken to wrapping a piece of white reflective tape between the nock and fletching, and a red one in front of the fletching. A dab of thin superglue at the seam and a shot of accelerator to lock it down so it does not flap after launch.
It really helps you find your arrows after dark, particluarly if you've shot 2 or 3 deer and can't quite remember, precisely, where all the arrows flew.
jon.henry755
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Great idea Twanger!
You know, you think I'm a wealth of knowledge, but if you and I lived closer and had gotten together, I'll bet anything that aside from the couple of things here and there that I could teach you, I could stand to learn a hundred or more from you.
You probably know more about urban deer hunting techniques and habits than anybody I've ever met. That's on top of all the statistical data you've gathered on things like cutting down the number of Kill Steps, etc...
It's great when we can exchange these ideas and information, since this is how everybody grows smarter as time goes on. I've learned as much from you and your threads as I've ever given, so I appreciate having people like you out there that contribute great information.
Those arrow wraps are on a new set of Aerobolt 200's, equipped with Dorge's Aerovane II's in a four fletch. They have my favorite wording imprinted on each wrap. It's the Grim Reaper with a bow at full draw and the slogan "Just Passin' Thru".
If you go to the Firenock.com website and look under "Products", you'll find the latest technical write up on the new Aerovane III's. They are the latest and greatest new technology based upon the research of a top Aerodynamics Engineering Professors Research. I'm just not sure they can be used on TAC15 Arrows (Aerobolts). This is because on a TAC15 arrow rotation of any type might cause an interference with getting the vanes to clear the arrow rest on exit. This is why PSE does not use any type of offset on their arrows.
This represents another entire series of tests that needs to be conducted in order to determine if any rate of spin can be tolerated on a TAC15 Crossbow and if so, how much?
Regards,
Jon
You know, you think I'm a wealth of knowledge, but if you and I lived closer and had gotten together, I'll bet anything that aside from the couple of things here and there that I could teach you, I could stand to learn a hundred or more from you.
You probably know more about urban deer hunting techniques and habits than anybody I've ever met. That's on top of all the statistical data you've gathered on things like cutting down the number of Kill Steps, etc...
It's great when we can exchange these ideas and information, since this is how everybody grows smarter as time goes on. I've learned as much from you and your threads as I've ever given, so I appreciate having people like you out there that contribute great information.
Those arrow wraps are on a new set of Aerobolt 200's, equipped with Dorge's Aerovane II's in a four fletch. They have my favorite wording imprinted on each wrap. It's the Grim Reaper with a bow at full draw and the slogan "Just Passin' Thru".
If you go to the Firenock.com website and look under "Products", you'll find the latest technical write up on the new Aerovane III's. They are the latest and greatest new technology based upon the research of a top Aerodynamics Engineering Professors Research. I'm just not sure they can be used on TAC15 Arrows (Aerobolts). This is because on a TAC15 arrow rotation of any type might cause an interference with getting the vanes to clear the arrow rest on exit. This is why PSE does not use any type of offset on their arrows.
This represents another entire series of tests that needs to be conducted in order to determine if any rate of spin can be tolerated on a TAC15 Crossbow and if so, how much?
Regards,
Jon
Twanger
Well-Known Member
Just thinking about this some, it's hard to imagine that any significant spin would be imparted to the arrow before the fletching clears the rest. Consider a 2-degree offset. That's a lot! Only once the arrow leaves the string is it free to rotate. The Tac15 brace-height is, what, maybe 7.5 inches (I'd have to measure it). Say the fletchings are 2.5 inches, that's 3:1 ratio. So if the fletchings could instantaneously spin the arrow up to the fletching offset rate, that means you'd get 2*3=6 degrees of rotation by the time it gets to the whisker biscuit. BUT we know that the arrow has significant rotational inertial (mass) and cannot spin up instantaneously, so the actual rotation has to be less. Probably a lot less. It depends on the force (torque) the fletching can exert of course, but I'd be willing to bet a turkey dinner that the arrow doesn't rotate more than 35% of that potential 6 degrees (i.e. if was already spinning as fast as the fletching could spin it). So maybe 2-degrees of rotation by the time it hits the biscuit.
That's not very much.
Buzzard Bait
Well-Known Member
You felows are going to need a super high speed camera to solve this one! If I could win a lottery!
Buzzard Bait
Buzzard Bait
jon.henry755
Well-Known Member
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Hi Twanger,
Glad to see you have your thinking cap on and the wheels are turning as usual. All well made points and to a large degree fairly accurate, but since a Whisker Biscuit is designed to be shot through, it probably doesn't make that big a difference on that rest.
My information was directed to the other two arrow rests that replaced the Whisker Biscuit. I was referring to the QAD Ultra HDX Drop Away Rest and most importantly Dorge's new three finger "Aerorest".
One could argue that in the case of the QAD HDX Ultra Drop Away Rest that it shouldn't make any difference because the QAD will drop completely out of the way and therefore not be in the way of any vane rotations. In theory, this is a true statement. Where the problem comes in is as soon as we leave theory behind and only focus on reality. Reality needs to proven in actual execution and not on paper or on the drawing boards. Until it's been tested and re-tested in actual shooting situations, I can't prove that theory and reality are one in the same.
On Dorge's new Aerorest we have three support fingers placed one below the shaft and two above the shaft. This doesn't leave much room for a margin of error. Anything slightly out of alignment could cause vane contact between one of the vanes and any of the rest fingers. It doesn't take more than 1/2 degree of rotation to possibly create a problem, so again, this must be tested and proven in the real world as opposed to on paper or in theory.
When these new vanes are working, they are over 30% less affected by crosswind than a standard arrow. This is huge!!! With the new design of the vane they achieve almost 300% more rotation than a standard arrow. This is an archers dream and carries a significant number of major benefits.
Now all we need to do is prove that it can be successfully used on arrows with this crossbow.
I'm not here to say it will or it won't work. I'm just raising the flag to say that it's not a simple or straight forward as most people think and I can't solve this issue by using simple applied logic.
I applaud you for your sound reasoning and logic because it's far ahead of what most people would figure out and as i stated, in theory it makes sense. We just need to now move beyond theory and actually verify what is fact or fiction.
Regards,
Jon
Glad to see you have your thinking cap on and the wheels are turning as usual. All well made points and to a large degree fairly accurate, but since a Whisker Biscuit is designed to be shot through, it probably doesn't make that big a difference on that rest.
My information was directed to the other two arrow rests that replaced the Whisker Biscuit. I was referring to the QAD Ultra HDX Drop Away Rest and most importantly Dorge's new three finger "Aerorest".
One could argue that in the case of the QAD HDX Ultra Drop Away Rest that it shouldn't make any difference because the QAD will drop completely out of the way and therefore not be in the way of any vane rotations. In theory, this is a true statement. Where the problem comes in is as soon as we leave theory behind and only focus on reality. Reality needs to proven in actual execution and not on paper or on the drawing boards. Until it's been tested and re-tested in actual shooting situations, I can't prove that theory and reality are one in the same.
On Dorge's new Aerorest we have three support fingers placed one below the shaft and two above the shaft. This doesn't leave much room for a margin of error. Anything slightly out of alignment could cause vane contact between one of the vanes and any of the rest fingers. It doesn't take more than 1/2 degree of rotation to possibly create a problem, so again, this must be tested and proven in the real world as opposed to on paper or in theory.
When these new vanes are working, they are over 30% less affected by crosswind than a standard arrow. This is huge!!! With the new design of the vane they achieve almost 300% more rotation than a standard arrow. This is an archers dream and carries a significant number of major benefits.
Now all we need to do is prove that it can be successfully used on arrows with this crossbow.
I'm not here to say it will or it won't work. I'm just raising the flag to say that it's not a simple or straight forward as most people think and I can't solve this issue by using simple applied logic.
I applaud you for your sound reasoning and logic because it's far ahead of what most people would figure out and as i stated, in theory it makes sense. We just need to now move beyond theory and actually verify what is fact or fiction.
Regards,
Jon
jon.henry755
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Hi Russ,
A High Speed Camera would be a dream come true for filming and proving these types of problems out. So when you've hit that lottery, please let me know and I'll send you my address so you know where to send me the camera.
In the mean time, while I'm waiting, I might need to do some old fashioned detective work using just plain old chalk on the top of my vanes while testing the new vanes during target shooting. If any of my blue chalk ends up on my rest prongs, I'll probably get the idea that something probably isn't quite right and that I might have a small problem.
I'm just not sure if I'm super exited about taking on yet another one of these adventures. In any case, it's not on the table now anyway. It's up to Dorge to decide when or if he's ready for that step, since he's the manufacturer.
These new additions to his line will be announced at the ATA Show this coming January, so we're talking about futures in this thread. This years ATA should be pretty hot with all the new Xbows, arrows and new equipment being introduced.
For you, me and Twanger the little project Lightfoot has going on is of more interest. We need to keep a close eye on how they progress, but always remain skeptical about the published ratings until we see solid results.
Regards,
Jon
Regards,
Jon
A High Speed Camera would be a dream come true for filming and proving these types of problems out. So when you've hit that lottery, please let me know and I'll send you my address so you know where to send me the camera.
In the mean time, while I'm waiting, I might need to do some old fashioned detective work using just plain old chalk on the top of my vanes while testing the new vanes during target shooting. If any of my blue chalk ends up on my rest prongs, I'll probably get the idea that something probably isn't quite right and that I might have a small problem.
I'm just not sure if I'm super exited about taking on yet another one of these adventures. In any case, it's not on the table now anyway. It's up to Dorge to decide when or if he's ready for that step, since he's the manufacturer.
These new additions to his line will be announced at the ATA Show this coming January, so we're talking about futures in this thread. This years ATA should be pretty hot with all the new Xbows, arrows and new equipment being introduced.
For you, me and Twanger the little project Lightfoot has going on is of more interest. We need to keep a close eye on how they progress, but always remain skeptical about the published ratings until we see solid results.
Regards,
Jon
Regards,
Jon
HarryE
Member
There is a ton of great information here!
I'm sure it's a new guy question, and I may have missed it, but when fletching with four vanes at 60-120, where would the spine be aligned?
As I understand it, on a traditional three vane, it's generally opposite the nocking vane, but I'm not sure where you would locate it when fletched with four vanes.
Thanks in advance for any assistance you may offer.
I'm sure it's a new guy question, and I may have missed it, but when fletching with four vanes at 60-120, where would the spine be aligned?
As I understand it, on a traditional three vane, it's generally opposite the nocking vane, but I'm not sure where you would locate it when fletched with four vanes.
Thanks in advance for any assistance you may offer.
Twanger
Well-Known Member
I don't pay attention to spine when I fletch.
However, I have noticed that if a particular arrow hits off the mark, I'll flip it over and see how it shoots. Often it will shoot better. I'll mark which side should be "up".
However, I have noticed that if a particular arrow hits off the mark, I'll flip it over and see how it shoots. Often it will shoot better. I'll mark which side should be "up".
