FL size, neck size only or .001 shoulder bump?

[jlvandersnick]

I'm finding that in some of my rifles I seem to get better LR (800 yds +) groups with just doing neck sizing. I recently read a thread where some seem to have good results with neck sizing only until the fired brass no longer fits into the chamber (4-6 firings)....at which point the reloader then needs bump the shoulder back . I have also noticed that I have to reduce the powder charge by about 1% on options 1 and 2 below especially option 1.

So the question is.... what are the advantages to:
1. neck sizing only as long as one can still close the bolt with reasonable effort.
2. FL sizing, but only bumping the shoulder back .001 each time OR
3. FL sizing to SAAMI spec each time (except the neck)

Assume on all options that bushings are used on necks to get .001 to .002 bullet tension. I generally use Norma and Nosler brass. Calibers are 6XC, 6.5 Rem Mag., 7 Rem Mag and 7 RUM.

Thanks
Jerry

 

[243winxb]

2. FL sizing, but only bumping the shoulder back .001 each time.

Size 1/2 of the neck wirh the bushing.

 

[jlvandersnick]

2. FL sizing, but only bumping the shoulder back .001 each time.

Size 1/2 of the neck wirh the bushing.

Thanks for responding
That is what I'm doing on the necks

 

[dsculley]

Your reloading procedures need to produce uniform, repeatable ammo. That leaves out neck sizing because, as you said, you will have to FL size eventually. You can properly FL size setting the shoulder back .001 - .002" either using a typical FL or with a bushing die. This way, your cases don't change so that is one variable eliminated.

I have come to like a bushing die that has been made for my chamber. Some people say that a regular FL die (one with a button) that is properly honed for your chamber is better. So far I have had really good results with the bushing die.

By the way, this also assumes we are discussing bolt guns.

FWIW,

 

[jlvandersnick]

Your reloading procedures need to produce uniform, repeatable ammo. That leaves out neck sizing because, as you said, you will have to FL size eventually. You can properly FL size setting the shoulder back .001 - .002" either using a typical FL or with a bushing die. This way, your cases don't change so that is one variable eliminated.

I have come to like a bushing die that has been made for my chamber. Some people say that a regular FL die (one with a button) that is properly honed for your chamber is better. So far I have had really good results with the bushing die.

By the way, this also assumes we are discussing bolt guns.

FWIW,

Thanks for responding. Yes I'm talking bolt guns.
All of my dies are Redding either Type S bushing or Competition bushing sets. Although I have a set (FL bushing) ordered from Whidden specifically for the chamber on my 6.5 REM MAG.

I have this same question posted on another thread and so far (3-0) people have said the same as you.....

 

[Mikecr]

Different cartridge designs lead to different reloading actions.
Same with chamber clearances (by design), gun builds, and loads (of your choosing).
Too many factors to broadly declare anything.

A 6XC is nothing at all like a 7RM, so there is no reason to wonder if optimum reloading actions for one would be the same as the other. They won't be.

 

[Lonewolf74]

I can't really give an unbiased opinion because I have only full length sized bumping the shoulder back .002.

I have a question though, has anybody been using the forster bushing bump neck die? This die is suppose to size the neck and bump the shoulder back however much you set it for without sizing the body. It seems to me this should be the best of both worlds and keep necks concentric but I haven't seen anyone recommend them.

 

[jlvandersnick]

Different cartridge designs lead to different reloading actions.
Same with chamber clearances (by design), gun builds, and loads (of your choosing).
Too many factors to broadly declare anything.

A 6XC is nothing at all like a 7RM, so there is no reason to wonder if optimum reloading actions for one would be the same as the other. They won't be.

How much of this difference has to do with the "belt". Basically, I'm trying to determine what is the best for brass life and at the same time accuracy. I understand their is no magic bullet so to speak.

 

[bigedp51]

I can't really give an unbiased opinion because I have only full length sized bumping the shoulder back .002.

I have a question though, has anybody been using the forster bushing bump neck die? This die is suppose to size the neck and bump the shoulder back however much you set it for without sizing the body. It seems to me this should be the best of both worlds and keep necks concentric but I haven't seen anyone recommend them.

I have seven different type and make .223 dies, and my Forster bushing bump die produces the most neck runout. And my Forster full length bench rest die produces the least neck runout, along with my RCBS dies equipped with the Forster expander and spindle assembly.

Neck sizing dies do not fully support the case body like a full length die does. Also when you reduce the neck diameter .004 or more with a bushing die it can induce neck runout. Meaning bushing dies work best with custom tight neck chambers with neck turned brass.

At the Whidden custom die website they tell you that non-bushing full length dies produce the most concentric ammunition.

 

[Mikecr]

Pretty much any 'broad declarations' about this subject would fail tests here & there.
And only a truth passes all tests, so achieving this here would follow a mountain of qualifications/disclaimers.

For instance, it is true that a FL die can produce ammo straightness equal to or even better than a NS die -but only under certain conditions including a fair number of attributes.
And when you account for trimming, and annealing, and brass replacements, FL sizing is not automatically easier than neck sizing to mitigate these things.
There are also many inaccuracies, misnomers, and generalizations to wade through in concluding anything. Likely half the reloaders here don't even know the difference between a body-bushing die and an actual FL die.

Personally, if I had to size the entire case body, I would.
But I would not ever FL size necks.

 

[coyotezapper]

Just finished a 6mmBR build and decided to go with the Whidden FL no bushing die but bought the tapered expander set to experiment with neck tension this way.

 

[jlvandersnick]

Thank you everyone for the input. Through all of this.... I think I now understand more fully one of the advantages to annealing. But let me clarify with a question.

Does annealing allow the brass to fully expand into the chamber (with minimal spring back) evenly and consistently from the first firing through many subsequent firings? Thus a .001 shoulder bump will move the shoulder back the same amount from after the first firing through the many subsequent firings.

 

[Mikecr]

I agree with your expectations with a good consistent process annealing of necks through upper bodies. Be sure to find a load that works well in this condition(lower neck tension). Here you may have to get your bullets in the lands(ITL) to get the gun shooting better.

If you decide to FL size necks, and hold any expectation of consistent neck tension, then you might as well invest in the best annealing you can buy, and seat shallow as you can to get bullet bearing away from donut brought into play(by that sizing).

Again, the best choices would include consideration of cartridge, chamber, intended loads, and possible expectations about use, brass life, performance, etc.
With cartridges, chambers, and sizing I run with, I only anneal before 1st firing, to get best forming. I never anneal formed cases again. Re-annealing would only serve to send me back to load development, and while I'm satisfied with my loads, there is no reason to cause all that.

If I were shooting something like a 7RM, I would plan body-bushing sizing, annealing at a constant rate, and load development with that condition as stable.

 

[243winxb]

No annealing for me , with 18 loadings on neck turned Win. Brass, loaded with Redding FL S bushing die.
I do remember going smaller on the bushing by 1 thousandth after many loadings.

Have not lost any with split necks , like i was getting with standard dies.

Shooting 243 win. In both rifles. Rem 40 X and 600.

No neck turning for the Rem 600 mohawk. It likes the bushing die also, but i do use the expander. There is light drag from the expander, with lubed inside necks.