Doubting what I saw at the LGS

Discussion in 'AR15/10 Rifles' started by 357lover, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. 357lover

    357lover Active Member

    Messages:
    29
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    So, Saturday I was out and about when I stopped by the LGS.
    The owner and a customer were looking over an AR and talking about the red dot on it.
    The discussion turned to shooting a steel plate. I stood back and listened.
    Not long the owner of the 223 went outside and got a steel plate he had been shooting at.
    Now here is where my doubts took over. The plate was 3/8" thick and had over ten 3/8" holes in it.
    The holes were evidently from a bullet as you could see the splatter around the holes.
    I'm thinking he claims to have done this at 100 yards with off the shelf 223 ammo.
    I left a bit skepical and have yet to convince myself what he claimed was possible.
    Before I close, I owned many AR's and I find it difficult that his claim to be viable.
    This bugs me, so can someone set me straight?
     
  2. lancetkenyon

    lancetkenyon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,022
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2013
    Green tip ammo on mild steel (not AR500 plate)?
     
    300whisper and 357lover like this.
  3. Varmint Hunter

    Varmint Hunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,745
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2001
    I've shot varmint bullets from a 22-250 through soft steel.
     
    357lover, iowaelkbum and DUSTY NOGGIN like this.
  4. Laelkhunter

    Laelkhunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    651
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2011
    Mild steel, not hardened. As lancetkenyon said, could be the green tip ammo (M855). It has a steel tip in the front of a lead core to assist in penetration of hardened targets.
     
    357lover and J E Custom like this.
  5. Hatrick

    Hatrick Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    412
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2016
    I have been to some indoor ranges and the green tips are banned. They check all ammo with a magnet if not purchased there.
     
    jasonco and 357lover like this.
  6. DUSTY NOGGIN

    DUSTY NOGGIN Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    228
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2015
    there is some also some penetration difference that happens over 3000 fps

    also a difference between hanging a plate and leaning a plate against something

    a36 mild steel , really is not that tough ... if this guy had a 3/8 plate leaning up against a fence and shooting at a distance where still fps exceeding 3000 , even a soft point could punch it ( as varmint hunter, stated above , his 22-250 exceeding that fps )

    but, the 3/8 diameter hole would be the impossibility...
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
    357lover and RockyMtnMT like this.
  7. CA48

    CA48 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    766
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    This was a long time ago but I had a target that I made for my revolvers. It was 2 8"x10" 1/2" plates welded together for a total of an 1" thick ( I wanted it heavy so it wasn't swinging to much). I ended up shooting it one day at 100 yds with my .223 55gr ballistic tips and my .308 150 cor lokts. The .223 penetrated farther every time and might have passed through the first plate if there wasnt another behind it. Both the holes of the .223 and .308 were very large for caliber. If remember correctly the .223 holes were easily 3/8 and the .308 holes were 5/8 or larger. I would have never guessed the holes were .223 and .308 unless I had shot them myself. I believe a big part of the excessive expansion in the mild steel was from the bullets dumping all of their energy on the heavy plate with out passing through.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
    357lover likes this.
  8. 357lover

    357lover Active Member

    Messages:
    29
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    I appreciate the heads up guys.
    I have been out of the 223 business for a long time now.
    I can't remember green tip ammo being available when I had the 223's and I never paid any attention to it on the shelf.
    I too am aware of the how picky the range officer is about Tula and Bear ammo. He said the back plate was only 1/4" and that ammo damaged it.
    As CA48 said the holes were 3/8", and I did hear the guy mention that the plate may have been mild steel.
    I'm thinking that the Green tip must be some really bad ammo.
    Before I left he was buying a case of Tula 223 that the owner said was a new version and was more powerful than the regular Tula.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
  9. RT2506

    RT2506 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,694
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2008
    Don't know about the 5.56 green tip but the old 06 black tip AP out of my 1903A3 Springfield shot through one front finder through the straight six engine block and out the other fender of a 1957 Chevy 2 1/2 ton wrecked log truck from 100 yards.
     
    357lover likes this.
  10. Laelkhunter

    Laelkhunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    651
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2011
    The 30/06 Armor Piercing round had a tungsten carbide core that was longer in relation to the "tip" size of the steel core of the M855. The tip only makes up for about 1/4 of the core size in the M855 whereas the entire core of the 30 cal is the tungsten penetrator except for a small layer of lead between the core and the jacket.
    The tip of the M855 looks like a small triangle of steel in front of the lead core, and the 30 caliber Tungsten core looks like an actual bullet, which fits inside the copper jacket of the 30/06.
     
    357lover likes this.
  11. RT2506

    RT2506 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,694
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2008
    Yes I know I was just relating what the old 06 AP would do. I was a teenager and had a cousin that was in the National Guard and every month when he came from muster he brought me a 250 round can of ammo and it was the AP stuff. Believe it or not that stuff would really shoot well in my old 03A3. That tungsten bullet inside that Black Tip looked about 25 cal. to me. Never measured one back then though.
     
    357lover likes this.
  12. Laelkhunter

    Laelkhunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    651
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2011
    Yes, it was very accurate. We used it to shoot precision matches back in the day using an M1 Garand. It was cheap, but other than the super expensive Federal 168 Match, it would really shoot well. Getting hard to come by now though.
     
    357lover likes this.
  13. Kansaswoodguy

    Kansaswoodguy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    380
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2014
    3/8" mild steel at 100yds shouldn't be an issue to shoot thru that's why they sell AR500 steel targets
     
  14. Riflehunter1776

    Riflehunter1776 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    483
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    In side-by-side tests, PO Ackley used to shoot 220 swift through thicker steel than the old USGI .30 AP round could penetrate.

    As far as the green tip, I've seen them loaded as accelerator rounds out of a 300 Win Mag, and their penetration was still negligible on good steel targets. Whatever their velocity was did not register on the chrony which the guy had there (just an 'error' message) And unfortunately there was no soft steel laying about on the day I saw these rounds tried out at the range.