Dialing vs. Holdover For Long Range Hunting

[Barrelnut]

Maybe I could bring some perspective.

For most of my adult life I was like most of us in that I hardly heldover or off. As I delved into long range competition shooting I started to see certain deficiencies in rifle scopes and reticles but primarily scopes with moa turrets combined with mil reticles or moa scopes with standard crosshairs or duplex type reticles and to further be confused I didn't realize SFP scopes have the moa or mil values correct on only one magnification which applies for wind holds too.

About 8 years ago I discovered FFP rifle scopes, nice! The only problem was I was topped out at what I could afford which meant I was saddled into to buying the cheaper line of Horus brand scopes. None of those tracked right which took me a while to figure out. It was a painful learning curve, lol. "Well there were other things I didn't understand too". So I was basically forced into a position to learn to become proficient at holding over and holding off. Over time I got very good at doing so.

A few years later a guy started a long range steel match in northern Arizona. Steel starting at 300Y on out to 1080Y. There I was holding over and off when everyone else was dialing elevation. Long story short it wasn't long before I was winning some matches.

When the Bushnell HDMR/H59 came out I bought one. I experimented with dialing and holding over. I decided to stick with what I was used to which worked out well. I won the 2011 and 2012 AZPRC championships against AZ's top steel shooters by holding over for elevation and off for wind.

I went on from the HDMR's to S&B's with the H-59 reticle. Nowadays I dial a lot, i'd say more than half the time, but honestly when I hold I wonder why I started dialing again. I can hit the same steel just fine either way.

Notably the AZPRC was held at the top of a hill and all the targets were anywhere from 13 degrees to 3 degrees downhill.

One thing is for sure, holding over is way faster. I'd use the extra time afforded me to get a better idea of what the wind was doing and to build a steady position which was part of the reason I was successful.

Congratulations on your success as a target shooter. But for long range HUNTING, the dots EVERYWHERE in the reticle can be somewhat distracting and can cause errors if you miss your dot count. In my opinion dialing is simpler under stress of having a live animal verses a steel target, especially in lower light lower contrast situations.

 

[gunman123]

Congratulations on your success as a target shooter. But for long range HUNTING, the dots EVERYWHERE in the reticle can be somewhat distracting and can cause errors if you miss your dot count. In my opinion dialing is simpler under stress of having a live animal verses a steel target, especially in lower light lower contrast situations.

Thanks.

Admittedly on occasion I will pick a wrong line but as long as I'm concentrating the correct line is selected for the shot, like for instance the first shot on a very important shot.

But then I've dialed wrong too before. Usually back when I'd run 5 mil turrets without a zero stop.

Some find the grid distracting, that's fine we are all made up different. Because I'm used to them they are normal to me. The difference is training.

Also it's worth mentioning that most of the steel targets we engage are smaller than a deer and less so compared to a elk.

All that being said, yes I'd probably dial for longer distances - "as long as I had time".

 

[rcoody]

How about this Whatever Works for YOU!

nobody is going to change anyone's mind.

try it you might like it.

Kentucky windage does work for some!

 

[gunners]

It's good to experiment with different options to find what works for you. As I'm getting older for some reason I'm finding it more difficult to estimate ranges when hunting especially when there's shadows around. So my range finder is becoming more and more essential, so have been experimenting with a cheap Bushnell AR 4-18 with Moa turrets. First scope was junk had it replaced second one is ok to work with apart from the fact the turrets dial to much, about 9mm per click instead of 7.25mm so all my drop charts were out because of it, so reduced the drops by 20% now it's bang on and appears to be repeatable at this stage. When the animals I hunt are out past 4-500 meters they think they're safe, so I have plenty of time to range them and dial it. The scope will probably struggle to go much further than that but it's getting to the limit of my rangefinder on animals anyway. Its allowed me to prove my rifle and loads are capable of 1/2 MOA or less out that far and has made me much more confident. $250 for scope and $100 for the barely used Bushnell pro 1600, money well spent I think. 20 odd years ago when I was younger I didn't have the same issue and was quite good at judging distances and holdovers to almost the same distances on goats and such with a simple duplex reticule. After a few more trips I'll work out whether I want/need to shoot out further or not cause I'll need to go up to a minimum Vortex H ST scope and probably a Leica rangefinder which will be 5 times the cost

 

[NorthernWhitetails]

Since this is titled for long range Hunting, there really isn't any comparison, shooting at targets with a H59 is really a totally different program, in the heat of the moment, shot of a lifetime
Situation , the more complicated the reticule the greater the chance for human error.............. I think the chances of hitting a Bull Elk at 800 yds for the avg guy , on an expensive hunt, the last day, from what I have observed in 45 years of guiding hunters, is DAILING, is the only show in town, complicated reticules that work fantastic on a cement bench at high noon,
Become a total nitemare as your running out of daylight....

 

[7magcreedmoor]

Tag.

 

[Litehiker]

THANK YOU Gunman 123,

Your explanation about why you used holding W/ a H59 reticle more than dialing is exactly what I was saying.

With a good mil/mil scope with a good "Christmas Tree" reticle like the Horus H59 or Tremor reticle a shooter can not only get shots off faster but make follow-up correction shots faster than dialing and with at least as much accuracy. Plus you don't have to worry about forgetting to dial back to your zero so your next dial is correct.

Sure, if you run out of vertical reticle at long distances you absolutely must dial. No question about that.

 

[Sully2]

Congratulations on your success as a target shooter. But for long range HUNTING, the dots EVERYWHERE in the reticle can be somewhat distracting and can cause errors if you miss your dot count. In my opinion dialing is simpler under stress of having a live animal verses a steel target, especially in lower light lower contrast situations.

Thank you for your post sir. I cannot begin to use some brands with dots and lines every which way in the viewfinder. I cant even use a pistol with the infamous "3 dot sights". ONE...simple ONE aiming point is all I need.

Whereas a proper crosshair is what I do best with...I can see how being able to move it according to the distance might be greatly helpful. But multiple dots or crosshairs or ( whatever) do nothing for me but confuse my line of sight

 

[teesquare]

WOW....What a thread!

And I think there is much experience to share from several different perspectives.

Thus far, my take away from this thread and field experience combined to summarize as follows:

Holdover - it depends a lot on the distance to the animal. In my hunts - the opportunities for a shoot/no shoot decision must be fast. It is the style of hunting and the hunting environment I enjoy. Often, an animal steps out that I was not stalking - and requires rapid response with scope - to - eye and use of known marks on the reticle as yardage estimators. FASTER than is possible to dial. So, holdover for me out to 300 yards is a reasonable equation for success. My rifles are zeroed at 300, so out to 400 +, - ....I will holdover and often I can lean on a tree, rock, log etc.

Dialing: If it is really far to the target ( beyond 400-500 yards as an example ) - you probably have the time for dialing, and even the luxury of a bipod, tripod, or shooting sticks. So dialing - whilst having a solid support for the forend - makes sense to me.

Where I think the heightened sensibilities ( o.k....egos ) have been bruised, or some folks have gotten "harrumphed"- is that there seems to be a mistaken belief that ONE method is THE answer ALL of the time. It isn't - at least for hunting. Because we have un-controlled circumstance when hunting. That is part of the challenge that we love - right? The distance to the target, the zero point of the rifle, and the reticle in the scope you have mounted on - and your confidence/familiarity/training can create a formula that you should get comfortable with. It is an individual one - but influenced by the conditions you hunt in and the game as well.
Whereas - for pure long range steel whacking' - where we use a bench, or we are prone and on a solid bag or bi-pod....Dialing is the common sense to accuracy for ONE reason: Because when we hold over - the possibility of less than solid, steady hand is real. A twitch of the eye....etc...you get the picture.
And - none of this even takes into act. the individual's visual acuity...Some folks do not have the same "eagle eye" that they used to. Getting' old ain't for sissies!

 

[Barrelnut]

Well said. I agree.

WOW....What a thread!

And I think there is much experience to share from several different perspectives.

Thus far, my take away from this thread and field experience combined to summarize as follows:

Holdover - it depends a lot on the distance to the animal. In my hunts - the opportunities for a shoot/no shoot decision must be fast. It is the style of hunting and the hunting environment I enjoy. Often, an animal steps out that I was not stalking - and requires rapid response with scope - to - eye and use of known marks on the reticle as yardage estimators. FASTER than is possible to dial. So, holdover for me out to 300 yards is a reasonable equation for success. My rifles are zeroed at 300, so out to 400 +, - ....I will holdover and often I can lean on a tree, rock, log etc.

Dialing: If it is really far to the target ( beyond 400-500 yards as an example ) - you probably have the time for dialing, and even the luxury of a bipod, tripod, or shooting sticks. So dialing - whilst having a solid support for the forend - makes sense to me.

Where I think the heightened sensibilities ( o.k....egos ) have been bruised, or some folks have gotten "harrumphed"- is that there seems to be a mistaken belief that ONE method is THE answer ALL of the time. It isn't - at least for hunting. Because we have un-controlled circumstance when hunting. That is part of the challenge that we love - right? The distance to the target, the zero point of the rifle, and the reticle in the scope you have mounted on - and your confidence/familiarity/training can create a formula that you should get comfortable with. It is an individual one - but influenced by the conditions you hunt in and the game as well.
Whereas - for pure long range steel whacking' - where we use a bench, or we are prone and on a solid bag or bi-pod....Dialing is the common sense to accuracy for ONE reason: Because when we hold over - the possibility of less than solid, steady hand is real. A twitch of the eye....etc...you get the picture.
And - none of this even takes into act. the individual's visual acuity...Some folks do not have the same "eagle eye" that they used to. Getting' old ain't for sissies!

 

[teesquare]

Thanks Barrelnut.

 

[rkcolt45]

Holdover, using a mil-dot reticle, works the best in my hunting situations. I hunt mostly on pipelines and high-lines in Louisiana. Deer are walking and usually never stop to let you dial the distance. By the time you dial they'd be gone. Normally I have only a few seconds to complete the shot. I zero at 300yds and each additional dot is another 100 yds. So my 2nd mil-dot below center reticle is centered at 500yds.

 

[Litehiker]

So far I have restricted my comments on holding to "Christmas tree" style reticles.

But even I do not have those reticles on my hunting rifles (yet).

SO I HOLD & DIAL

Ex. My hunting scope, a 5 - 15 x 42 SWFA scope, is mil/mil (turrets and reticle). When hunting I use a Bushnell 1 Mile ARC laser rangefinder 10 X binocular that is programmed to give me mil holds for my particular cartridge. At least I'll get the range correct.

So I hold for elevation and then dial for windage.
This is a must so that I'm not holding "out in space" (i.e. guessing). It is only fair to the animal.

This brings me to my wet dream scope, Burris Eliminator III. It has both an accurate laser rangefinder and a "Christmas tree" reticle AND a built in inclinometer that puts the lighted hold over dot at the proper point for that angle! For $1,500. it may be a bargain. (At least that's what I'll tell my wife if she discovers the receipt.;o) So maybe next year I'll get it. Mmmmmmm...

 

[bigngreen]

So far I have restricted my comments on holding to "Christmas tree" style reticles.

There are still a couple of hold over or dial threads you haven't dug up to post to yet, keep digging you'll get them all found!!