Custom Load Development

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by LRHunter, Jan 19, 2011.

  1. LRHunter

    LRHunter Member

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    I have a custom 7mm rem mag rifle that I would like to have some custom load development on. I really dont fully understand the technical details of (nor do I have the equipment for) reloading, however, I do understand ballistics fairly well . Essentially, I am looking for a few folks that will build some custom ammo and do some load development for me. Two questions:

    1. Who do you recommend for custom load development work?

    2. Who does custom load development that will also take terminal velocity readings with a chrono at 200, 400 and 600 yards? Most folks won't do terminal velocity readings just muzzle velocity. I would like to take three 3 shot groups (with a good cleaning at each yardage) at each of the terminal velocity yardages so that I have a good sample data to determine accurate BC and velocity specific to my rifle.

    Thanks in advance and I look forward to hearing any suggestions or input.
     
  2. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Well-Known Member

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    that is going to be hard to find due to the liability issue.

    Plus to do it right, they would have to have your gun and set the dies up for it.

    I would try some black hills loaded ammo and they can give you the BC and MV then double check the drops at those ranges to confirm zeros and drop charts.

    BH
     
  3. LRHunter

    LRHunter Member

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    Thx for the response. I forgot to mention that I would be sending my rifle in for the custom load development. I use Loadbase (understand it fairly well) and I need someone to do the custom ammo and development for me. Loadbase has a number of modules that require chrono readings at various yardages to determine BC, drag, etc specific to my rifle and I need some very detailed work to get it done.
     
  4. Grumulkin

    Grumulkin Well-Known Member

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    I hope you're prepared to spend quite a bit of money.

    1. A big liability issue as noted above.

    2. You want a "good cleaning at each yardage." A good cleaning isn't always necessary or even desirable in load workup. Do you know how long a good cleaning takes?

    3. You want measured velocity at 200, 400 and 600 yards. I guess you know you have to shoot the bullets just over the sky screens of the chronograph. With a very accurate rifle, it's doable at 100 yards. With an even more accurate rifle it's doable with an accurate load at 200 yard if you're lucky. At ranges above that expect to replace chronographs regularly unless you have some type of heavy armor to shield the instrument from the many errant shots that will occur.

    4. While your goal to have precise information for your rifle is a noble and ambitious one, it's a bit unnecessary and futile since velocities and ballistics for your rifle will vary depending on such factors as atmospheric pressure, temperature, barrel wear, different powder lots, etc.
     
  5. LRHunter

    LRHunter Member

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    Thx for the input Grumulkin, much appreciated and duly noted. Couple comments.

    Liability - I am not sure what liability you are referencing, please elaborate as I may be thinking one thing and you another.

    Cleaning - A good cleaning after each shot or three 3 shot group is debatable as I have known some shooters who clean their barrell relentlessly and found that their first few shots were off, then accuracy improved, then fell off 10-15 shots later. I believe it varies from rifle to rifle. But, yes, I agree, a good cleaning takes time and patience and should be done. If I do this, I am thinking I will clean after each yardage sample.

    Skyscreens - Agreed, big issue, I am working with my someone to use some AR 500 steel plates to protect them.

    Conditions - I agree with you on changes in atmospheric conditions, however, Loadbase allows you to adjust for sight-in conditions (i.e. conditions during the time of data collection) and field conditions . In addition, it allows me to take multiple samples of muzzle velocity and final velocity readings, screen ditances, etc to accurately calculate corrected velocity and BC at specific sight-in conditions. Therefore, if those conditions change out in the field, which they will, the software compensates for this. To take this a step further, since muzzle velocity also changes substaintially with temperate, there is a buildt in regression module that allows you to take 4 temperate samples throughout the year and input them into Loadbase to determine what the adjusted muzzle velocity would be even if you havent shot and tested at the temperature. You then take the adjusted muzzle velocity, input it into your ballistics for the temperature you are shooting at for the proper adjustments.

    Barrell Wear - Shooters can never adjust for this other than deal with it on the fly as well as many other factors involved at long range shooting.

    Uneccessary & Futile - This is the response that I want to hear from the pros as I do not want to do something that is unneccessary. Having said that, it has always been my understanding that BC's (and obviously muzzle velocities "MV") are different from rifle to rifle. However, someone told me that BC's dont change only trajectory changes (MV). This confused me. If BC's don't change, just MV, then theoritically you could take the advertised G7 BC from bullet manufactuer not G1 (as it is velocity dependent), measure just your MV at specific atmospheric conditions (not terminal velocity at the target) and input that along with bullet manufacturers advertised DC (Drag Coeff) and you should be spot on (provided you properly compensated for wind, coriolis, cant, etc). If so, then I agree, that would make my work futile, please confirm or clarify this as this is where I am getting a but fuzzy. And remember, that Loadbase does allow for compensating for sight-in vs field data.


    Thanks in advance.
     
  6. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Well-Known Member

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    Liability for the guy doing the load development is huge! You are asking for custom tuned loads, max accuracy obviously and repeatable from one set of ammo to the next time.

    I know of no one who will do this right as you are thinking.

    Most custom reloaders only sell loads that are not anywhere near the max and are resized to fit in any chamber without regard to best accuracy or brass life. Their liability insurance coverage would probably not even cover what you want.

    You are asking basically for the loads at the max of accuracy etc. this will require dedicated dies and components if done correctly.

    They are going to need a set of "dedicated" dies for your gun, lot of time spent in load development, tuning and then making loads. They will have to save that one lot of powder, cases, bullets etc just for you. Otherwise they have to start over every time something changes and you want more ammo.

    IMO forget Loadbase until you start reloading yourself and just use exbal ($75). It will work more than sufficiant for what you are asking.

    You are overcomplicating the issue I think.

    BH
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  7. Grumulkin

    Grumulkin Well-Known Member

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    1. The liability would accrue to the reloader of your ammunition. Not many in their right mind would load a bunch of ammunition for you with out adequate liability insurance. Even if their ammunition was perfect, if you had a misadventure with your rifle from an obstructed bore or whatever, you or your heirs could sue them and, whether right or wrong, they would have to defend the suit. Also, special permits are required for loading and selling ammunition to others.

    Superior Ammunition, for one, I believe makes custom loads but I doubt they'll measure velocities at 200, 400 and 600 yards and clean the barrel every few shots for you.

    2. The availability of various good ballistics software you mention is the very reason you don't need to measure velocities at 200, 400 and 600 yards. You would be better off knowing muzzle velocity and then actually shooting your gun at your specified ranges. Once you acquire your data on bullet drop, you will actually have very usable data for shooting at those ranges. You can even enter bullet drop and BC and get an idea of bullet velocity at those ranges; not as precise as actually measuring the velocity but quite usable and a lot cheaper.

    There are cartridges like the 408 Cheytac for which detailed software is available that calculates bullet drift based on Coriolis effect, spin drift, etc. Hardly anyone really needs that information though and it's not something that has been worked up for every common cartridge and much less so for every possible load.

    3. I would say, use the G7 BC if it's available but the G1 provides a good starting point to get on paper at long ranges for further testing.

    4. Barrel wear is unfortunate as all the data you've collected at much expense won't be so precise after you shot one or two thousand rounds. To find the optimal load and do load testing to get the data you want will run into several hundred rounds.

    5. Some barrels shoot just as well after cleaning as when fouled and a fair number shoot better when fouled. It would be pretty uncommon for accuracy to fall off in any less than 15 or 20 rounds and some barrels will go a lot longer before inaccuracy occurs. Never leave any oil in the barrel after cleaning as it's not good for the barrel and it will always cause the first several shots to be off.
     
  8. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    The only one who would do this with YOUR gun, is YOU.
    Aside that mentioned, there is just too much uncontrolled risk in your gun. For all anyone knows, it could be a total POS/waste of time...
    But you might buy something all the work has already been completed on, from someone like this: Accurate Custom Hunting Rifles by Quarter Minute Magnums
    I do not know anything about them, but a unique aspect of their business model is that they work up & demonstrate what guns are actually capable of before selling them.
    Given the low prices of their guns, plus the work they've invested developing each, I would think they will be out of business very soon, unless they pick a standard & stick with just that.
    You might offer them enough money to continue...
     
  9. LRHunter

    LRHunter Member

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    Grumulkin & Bountyhunter, thanks for the input and I understand the liability part. I realize that its a level of detail that most people dont have the patience to go through, however, I know that it will produce accurate results if done right. Loadbase is only as complicated as you want to make it. Having said that, I have found a few folks that will do it, it isnt cheap by any means and I will ask about the dedicated dies, saving powders, cases, etc....all useful things to know. Much appreciated.

    As far as the 2-600 ranges, I picked those numbers as they are easier to setup two chronos with, at 1000 yards, its a whole different ball game and the reloader has to be able to not only do a good job with the reloading but must be consistent shooter to avoid damaging chronos. This gun will be used for 1000 yard shots paper punching and less than a 1000 yards for hunting as I dont believe in taking game that far.

    Mikecr, the best person is me! Unfortunately I dont have the time to do that but I am willing to work with someone I can trust.....searching for a few and getting there. As far as the gun being a POS, I can guarantee you its not. I've been shooting a long time, just not adapt at custom loading. This is my most accurate custom gun yet (all tacked at @ 100yards) and I've got a lot of money invested in it ($9K) and I owe it to myself to do the custom load development right! Besides its a journey and I learn a lot of things along the way, that, in of itself, is worth it to me.
     
  10. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    OK:
    YET:
    Seems contradictory to me..
    And to be so proud of investing in a gun without a plan...
    I think you're so lost that you can't ask the correct questions, much less understand the answers.
     
  11. LRHunter

    LRHunter Member

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    Mikecr, I didn't start this thread to get smack talk, its really unneccessary and unproductive.
     
  12. Oliveralan

    Oliveralan Well-Known Member

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    there is no business that will do this for you, at least legally because of the huge liability involved, the ineffiecenty of having to keep your lot of powder and your bullets in stock etc. I seriously doubt someone could get insured for this. Unless they are loading ammo to sammi specs, sammi lengths, and low pressure.

    You can probably find someone to do something like that, but nope, your not getting handload quality ammo from some company.

    Honestly it doesn't take that much time to roll your own, and if you don't have that time, you probably also don't have nearly enough time to be or become proficient at the ranges you want to.
     
  13. LRHunter

    LRHunter Member

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    oliveralan, actually, I have found a number of custom rifle companies that will do the reloading and load development for me. Liability issues are another story as they will insure my rifle while its in their possession but thats as far as it goes. Either way you go, its still a risk..........

    In regards to shooting abilities paired against reloading abilities. I spend more than ample time at the range and have no issues shooting extended ranges and have done so for many years. Because, I dont want to reload my own ammo does not translate into not being able to shoot enough or become proficient in doing so. Its apples and oranges.
     
  14. diriel

    diriel Well-Known Member

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    Have you checked in on Nosler Custom? At one point I think they had a service like that. Not sure, as I have always been an avid reloader. Worth looking at though.

    Gary