Concentricity/Neck Turning/Culling Cases:

[dok7mm]

What is your chamber neck diameter, chamber OAL and loaded round neck diameter? Before you go to turning necks, you need to know this. Until you know these 3 measurements, I would avoid turning necks.

 

[Comancheria]

Thanks for all your comments. More later.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I quit worrying about ultra accurate shot placement long ago. So long as my sticks shoot an acceptable group at 250 yards, good with me. Reason being is that the kill zone on an Elk is about 24" and a whitetail is about 14" so why sweat sub moa groups at distance anyway. As A rule, I don't shoot paper or steel, I shoot for the freezer and it's never been an issue.

 

[Mikecr]

You may be able to put brass brand concerns aside if it's cheap enough. After all, the best brass will be what you made so, regardless of brand. Just buy a good amount (in same lot#),, pick out diamonds in the rough,, trash the rest.
Forget runout with new brass, as none of it will be straight until you've fire-formed it to straight. Forget concentricity all together..
If you desire straight reloaded ammo, measure new brass for thickness variance at mid necks. Cull out anything breaking 1/2thou. Doesn't matter if turning necks or not, that thickness variance runs full length of the brass, and affects straightness with each sizing down the road.

 

[roadking0678]

Folks,

I tried my best to research this question on the reloading page, but was unsuccessful in finding the answers to my specific question:

I have all the precision loading tools you could hope for. I will soon be reloading for .300 Win Mag and .300 RUM, using Berger Bullets.

I have a new inventory of 300 Remington cases in .300 RUM and 100 cases in the Winnie. I will soon be the proud owner of 300 rounds of Berger factory bullets--which, when shot, will be a source of what I suspect will be excellent cases for the future. I realize the Remington cases are not everyone's favorite.

My question is as follows: I have the Sinclair Case Sorting Tool and the Sinclair Concentricity Tool, each with its own dial indicator--as well as the Sinclair Case Turning Tool. It is my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong!) that I can use the Concentricity Tool to determine (1) Bullet runout on reloaded OR factory ammo, AND (2) neck concentricity with case, measured at the neck, either fired or re-sized). It is also my understanding that I can use the sorting tool to measure neck thickness for consistency.

So, OK--I am sitting down at my bench with say, 100 new cases in front of me. I measure them on both tools:

(1) At what point in non-concentricity of neck to body should I cull the case? Or should I resize the case no matter how out of whack it is, and remeasure?

(2) Same question with regard to inconsistency in neck thickness? Is there a recommended difference in thousandths at which one should give up on the case?

(3) I hear about "banana cases" and how they should be culled. I think the whole concept with which I am struggling here is this: How do you know when you have a non-salvageable case?

(4) With regards to neck turning, I realize that some people think is stupid EVER to turn and some who do it religiously. Question is: If you do turn case necks, after running an expander through the necks, how many thousandths out-of even

Thanks as always for your advice--sorry that it is such a one-way street!

Best regards,

Russ

1. as far as culling cases... i only cull after weighing cases and sorting them into groups of like weights.. within a 4 grains of each other. I dont worry about concentricity at this point.

2. This is a personal preference. I actually measure all of my cases and find the thinnest point on the neck of all of them..i then subtract 1 thousandth and this is where i set my case turner and turn all of the necks to that measurement.

3. all cases are banana's. I will say the better brass.. Lapua, Federal Gold etc.. are more concentric and require less prep. Factory and cheaper brass AKA Remington, Winchester are fine.. they just require more prep and have a shorter case life.

4. Answered in #2, BUT the second part of the question my answer is. I keep all of my case necks within 2 thou of each other on subsequent reloading's. If they start getting to 3 and 4 depending on how much brass is left I may do a second turning. This usually only works on really good brass like Lapua. They tend to have more meat on the necks.

Final Notes: Reloading is FUN and should stay fun. There are some "General" rules about safety that must be followed but after that its really all personal preference and what works for YOU and your rifle. For me it's relaxing and a fun challenge to see how consistent I can make my ammo. Some people just like the money savings. It really doesn't matter as long as you are having fun and being safe.

I personally think it's good to start out on cheap brass so you can learn how to dial in an imperfect case to perfection without tearing up brass you spent a lot of money on. Plus you know your ammo inside and out.

All of this only works though if you have your chamber dimensions. This is the critical measurement so you know YOUR rifles OAL, neck size, and distance to the lands. Once you have all these measurements you can really dial in your brass.

Or... if you just want to make good consistent ammo for hunting/target practice sticking to SAAMI specs and trimming/turning you cases will be a great hobby and save you some money.

Anyway.. these are just my opinions and experiences. Im stoked you're wanting to reload to the best standard. Im passing this stuff on to my kids and even my wife is now interested. Got to keep this part of shooting alive!

 

[ar10ar15man]

lol 4 grains...must be a large target hunter( nothing wrong with that)
i use 1/2 spread...plus or minus 0.25 gr
i use 0.1 for serious target rifles
read my sig line

 

[Velvet]

simply the wrong choice in case maker to start with.
there is no rem nor winchester in match guns

My R700 300winmag rifle does not think the same .... Cases and primers Remington brand. Tests with 220gn ELDX and 180gn Sierra ProHunter at 100y.
R25 Powder.

 

[roadking0678]

lol 4 grains...must be a large target hunter( nothing wrong with that)
i use 1/2 spread...plus or minus 0.25 gr
i use 0.1 for serious target rifles
read my sig line

Actually a small target shooter. I've just found that sorting by micro spreads didnt have much effect on accuracy or velocity. Your rifles might be different. and thanks for helping me realize I made an error.. I meant .4 not 4

 

[Jerry H]

Folks,

I tried my best to research this question on the reloading page, but was unsuccessful in finding the answers to my specific question:

I have all the precision loading tools you could hope for. I will soon be reloading for .300 Win Mag and .300 RUM, using Berger Bullets.

I have a new inventory of 300 Remington cases in .300 RUM and 100 cases in the Winnie. I will soon be the proud owner of 300 rounds of Berger factory bullets--which, when shot, will be a source of what I suspect will be excellent cases for the future. I realize the Remington cases are not everyone's favorite.

My question is as follows: I have the Sinclair Case Sorting Tool and the Sinclair Concentricity Tool, each with its own dial indicator--as well as the Sinclair Case Turning Tool. It is my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong!) that I can use the Concentricity Tool to determine (1) Bullet runout on reloaded OR factory ammo, AND (2) neck concentricity with case, measured at the neck, either fired or re-sized). It is also my understanding that I can use the sorting tool to measure neck thickness for consistency.

So, OK--I am sitting down at my bench with say, 100 new cases in front of me. I measure them on both tools:

(1) At what point in non-concentricity of neck to body should I cull the case? Or should I resize the case no matter how out of whack it is, and remeasure?

(2) Same question with regard to inconsistency in neck thickness? Is there a recommended difference in thousandths at which one should give up on the case?

(3) I hear about "banana cases" and how they should be culled. I think the whole concept with which I am struggling here is this: How do you know when you have a non-salvageable case?

(4) With regards to neck turning, I realize that some people think is stupid EVER to turn and some who do it religiously. Question is: If you do turn case necks, after running an expander through the necks, how many thousandths out-of even

Thanks as always for your advice--sorry that it is such a one-way street!

Best regards,

Russ

 

[rockwind]

Folks,

I tried my best to research this question on the reloading page, but was unsuccessful in finding the answers to my specific question:

I have all the precision loading tools you could hope for. I will soon be reloading for .300 Win Mag and .300 RUM, using Berger Bullets.

I have a new inventory of 300 Remington cases in .300 RUM and 100 cases in the Winnie. I will soon be the proud owner of 300 rounds of Berger factory bullets--which, when shot, will be a source of what I suspect will be excellent cases for the future. I realize the Remington cases are not everyone's favorite.

My question is as follows: I have the Sinclair Case Sorting Tool and the Sinclair Concentricity Tool, each with its own dial indicator--as well as the Sinclair Case Turning Tool. It is my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong!) that I can use the Concentricity Tool to determine (1) Bullet runout on reloaded OR factory ammo, AND (2) neck concentricity with case, measured at the neck, either fired or re-sized). It is also my understanding that I can use the sorting tool to measure neck thickness for consistency.

So, OK--I am sitting down at my bench with say, 100 new cases in front of me. I measure them on both tools:

(1) At what point in non-concentricity of neck to body should I cull the case? Or should I resize the case no matter how out of whack it is, and remeasure?

(2) Same question with regard to inconsistency in neck thickness? Is there a recommended difference in thousandths at which one should give up on the case?

(3) I hear about "banana cases" and how they should be culled. I think the whole concept with which I am struggling here is this: How do you know when you have a non-salvageable case?

(4) With regards to neck turning, I realize that some people think is stupid EVER to turn and some who do it religiously. Question is: If you do turn case necks, after running an expander through the necks, how many thousandths out-of even

Thanks as always for your advice--sorry that it is such a one-way street!

Best regards,

Russ

one thing you may consider is ALOT of info you get will be folks that have applied benchrest ocd style reloading to their system, whether or not they are shooting benchrest. what you may be doing does not sound like benchrest and what i mean is that while sure, every tiny little detail could make a difference but for what you are doing, you will probably never see it on paper or target, especially depending on how you shoot or the quality of your rifle.

another thing, as far as concentricity, way far down your list of worries btw, can be measured numerous ways so compare apples to apples when doing it, some guys say they get .0005 when that may not be the case.

and like many have said, unless you have good brass, which you may not have, you could drive yourself crazy trying to get the results of actually having good brass. you should probably just focus on that berger ammo. ymmv

 

[RYEWSKY25284]

Thanks for all your considered replies, Gentlemen. First a little bit of the back story: I have actually reloaded before—primarily during the 70s and 80s—creating pretty ordinary fodder for an AR-15 and some hunting rifles which I never shot beyond 200 yards. Everything worked. At the time, I was generally aware of more precise processes.

As I prepared for retirement, I stocked up on a really good and complete reloading setup.

Fast forward to the great Ammo and Component shortages attendant upon a certain previous political situation—Remington was about all I could get. (Also stocked up on RL22 and 25–together with all of its temperature sensitivity )

So yeah—I do understand what all of you are saying. Lapua would be nice, but they don't make cases for either of my two calibers. That's where I hope the Berger Win Mag 215 and 230 grain loaded Ammo I am stocking up on will come in—1: if the bullets work in my barrel, more's the better—and whether or not they do, I will have 300 presumably premium cases with which to work. (Norma? Nosler?—of course, Berger ain't talkin'!)

Meantime, my best (and expensive) hope is for Berger to grow their loaded product line to include .300 RUM. Wouldn't 230 grain OTMs be nice!

I did a little more research and here is what I am thinking as to my original question: Resize both new and fired brass—even though the new stuff is highly unlikely to even touch the sides of the dies. Then use the Concentricity Gauge to measure runout on the case necks—abandoning any cases over say, .001 of runout.

IMHO you'll be wasting brass if you cull over .0001 of run out. .0003 is acceptable and should still produce VGA results.

 

[Susquatch]

Folks,

I tried my best to research this question on the reloading page, but was unsuccessful in finding the answers to my specific question:

I have all the precision loading tools you could hope for. I will soon be reloading for .300 Win Mag and .300 RUM, using Berger Bullets.

I have a new inventory of 300 Remington cases in .300 RUM and 100 cases in the Winnie. I will soon be the proud owner of 300 rounds of Berger factory bullets--which, when shot, will be a source of what I suspect will be excellent cases for the future. I realize the Remington cases are not everyone's favorite.

My question is as follows: I have the Sinclair Case Sorting Tool and the Sinclair Concentricity Tool, each with its own dial indicator--as well as the Sinclair Case Turning Tool. It is my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong!) that I can use the Concentricity Tool to determine (1) Bullet runout on reloaded OR factory ammo, AND (2) neck concentricity with case, measured at the neck, either fired or re-sized). It is also my understanding that I can use the sorting tool to measure neck thickness for consistency.

So, OK--I am sitting down at my bench with say, 100 new cases in front of me. I measure them on both tools:

(1) At what point in non-concentricity of neck to body should I cull the case? Or should I resize the case no matter how out of whack it is, and remeasure?

(2) Same question with regard to inconsistency in neck thickness? Is there a recommended difference in thousandths at which one should give up on the case?

(3) I hear about "banana cases" and how they should be culled. I think the whole concept with which I am struggling here is this: How do you know when you have a non-salvageable case?

(4) With regards to neck turning, I realize that some people think is stupid EVER to turn and some who do it religiously. Question is: If you do turn case necks, after running an expander through the necks, how many thousandths out-of even

Thanks as always for your advice--sorry that it is such a one-way street!

Best regards,

Russ

Having retired about 15 years ago, I am feeling for you so here goes. (I didn't read all the other replies, just a few, so some of this may cover old ground... I'm also NOT going to answer each of your questions per say. I'm just gunna tell you what 60 some odd years of reloading has taught me.

#1 - I buy about 150 to 200 brass (depending on how much I plan to shoot that rifle) of a given lot of new brass. I get Lapua if I can. If not, I try to get Norma, or Nosler in that order. There is other good brass out there, but that's what I get.

#2 - I sort all 150-200 brass by weight by 0.1 grains. I just line them all up in columns of the same weight. When I am all done, there will be an obvious normal distribution of weights with the majority falling in the middle and some outliers at either end. I just flat out cull anything at the far right and far left 4 to 6 columns. Basically, any column with less than 5 brass in it. They go into a special box for experimenting, setups, and firing clean barrel foulers. The rest get put into 50 round boxes in order of weight lightest to heaviest left to right.

#3 If I am fireforming, I do that step next to all the brass both good and bad. Each brass goes back in bock cavity it came from (and it will live there almost
forever).

#4 I measure 1 in 20 cases or so for water capacity using a syringe and water diluted with a few drops of alcohol in it to improve wetting (avoids internal bubbles) and I record those capacities noting any correlation to weight.

#5 I trim necks and eburr flasholes, if required. This is rarely required with Lapua, Nosler, or Norma.

#6 if the cases were fireformed, I turn necks next. If not, I fireform them and then turn necks. I do not turn necks for consistency (Lapua, Nosler, & Norma are all consistent enough right out of the box.) In general, I only turn necks if I have a tight necked chamber that requires it. In any case, all necks are turned enough to obtain a clean neck from top to bottom and/or as required for neck clearance in the chamber.

#7 I load all the cases as appropriate for load development from left to right being careful to sequence my loading such that brass usage is evenly spread across all the brass.

#8 once I have my loads developed, I begin refining the loads and culling the brass based on how they shoot. For long range rifles, I cull based on velocity fliers. For bench and target rifles, I cull based on group flyers only. It takes two flyers to designate a brass as a flyer. Forgive one flyer, condemn the second.

#9 I re-Jimmy all the brass down slots in the storage box to replace all the culled brass slots.

#10 This process will usually result in a good load, uniform brass, and one box of good brass for hunting and one for target shooting.

Long ago I stopped using a concentricity gauge because I never found a good correlation between concentricity and consistent shooting. A brass would be bad one day and good on the next and shoot better than I do regardless. I am good to about 0.2 MOA in good conditions. But I am old and all my senses suck.

I know that doesn't answer your questions, but maybe it gives you some food for thought.

My final advice would be to get rid of the Remington brass and the concentricity tools and invest in the best dies you can afford. Good brass loaded in good dies does not require concentricity testing and whatever wobble it does produce is probably not reproducable anyway. If it is, then you are probably not using the dies properly.

Enjoy your retirement! Time to be a boy and have some fun again!

 

[JDD]

Sorting cases by weight is a feel good exercise. Start with good brass!!!!! Trim to uniform length. Lightly size, prime with some of the cheapest primers you can find. Fill case with water , carefully weigh the water. Only way you will measure internal capacity of the case. Punch primer out uniform primer pock and hole. Sort case necks or turn ,then fireform . Until fired again the trimming does not effect run out. After being formed check body and neck for run. If you got run out it's the chamber not the cases fault. First fireforming should always be done with the bullet hard into the lands. You get less stretch at case head. From then on I neck size only. Baby them you get best results with a tight neck rig. Cases prepared as such will shoot down to the hundreds. If case does not shot through the bug hole market if it does it a second time it's a cull

 

[misterc01]

So far in my adventures in reloading of about 1 1/2 years, I follow a process, and use a checklist to ensure I do not skip steps that so far works, and is modified as I learn more. New cases: Clean neck. Full length resize. Run through ultra-sonic cleaner to remove case lube. Measure length of case, trim if needed to get all to same and recommended length. Measure neck thickness, turn if not all the same, turn all, to same and recommended thickness. De-burr and Chamfer regardless - VLD tool. Uniform Primer pockets. De-burr primer pocket. Insert match primer. Load powder. Seat bullet with micrometer die. Check for concentricity, adjust if necessary to .002" or less - usually nearer to .0005. Put in holder. I work normally in 100 case batches. Batches are all tracked. For fired brass, the only changes/different steps: Tumble. check cases for any defects from firing - cull. Clean neck. De-cap. Measure case length, trim, de-burr, chamfer if needed. Neck size with match-grade bushing die. clean primer pocket. The rest of the process is the same as for new brass. After about 5 firing cycles, anneal. That is pretty much the same for all calibers I reload, and I am primarily reloading to get precision reloads. ALL the info prior to my post is extremely useful, and YOU can decide what steps or methods you want to adopt or not. The quality of the tools are paramount, and as I can afford more premium brass, I add that into the equation, in 100 case batches. And like most posting here, as I learn(ed) more, I have items I wish I had not spent the $ on, BUT they all contributed to the learning curve. In the end, YOU are doing the reloading, and if you load safely, following best practices, read and research, YOU should eventually get to where you have consistent ammunition you enjoy shooting. Good luck!!