... for what it is worth!
Common sense reloading ...
- Thread starter FEENIX
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
No, Sir, he is not.
He's improved my process alot.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
2 things I don't agree with:
1. The implication that all there is to reloading is cutting checks for Lapua brass and Berger bullets.
2. He boils it down to 3 things with 1 being harmonics, but none of powder development for low ES, full seating testing, or consistent BC approach 'harmonics'.
I get what he's saying in that seating is the biggest (coarse) adjustment to precision, and barring actual barrel tuning, low ES is desirable.
Also, if you have a good barrel, and get anywhere near a tune, along with optimal seating, then 1/2moa is likely.
Most people, including competitors (outside of IBS BR) are good with 1/2moa.
Doesn't seem like the title of his video should include the term precision, which may be taken as advanced, while he is barely talking about basic reloading.
Consistent BC?
You don't get that with the simple buying of Berger bullets. Look at them on a shelf sometime. Notice each box has a BC declared.
You know they don't measure every bullet. It is an average for some in lot. It is also VERY 'complicated' to measure BC.
That said, I love Berger bullets and have no problem with them personally.
But for a general claim that simply buying a brand get's you consistent BC, then I would expect you to be sitting on a huge lot of Clinch River or maybe a special run of BIB bullets.
Outside of qualifying every attribute contributing to BC, on every single bullet, you could tip or point off qualified ogive radius for each. That would help, but that is still more complicated than buying boxes of Bergers.
1. The implication that all there is to reloading is cutting checks for Lapua brass and Berger bullets.
2. He boils it down to 3 things with 1 being harmonics, but none of powder development for low ES, full seating testing, or consistent BC approach 'harmonics'.
I get what he's saying in that seating is the biggest (coarse) adjustment to precision, and barring actual barrel tuning, low ES is desirable.
Also, if you have a good barrel, and get anywhere near a tune, along with optimal seating, then 1/2moa is likely.
Most people, including competitors (outside of IBS BR) are good with 1/2moa.
Doesn't seem like the title of his video should include the term precision, which may be taken as advanced, while he is barely talking about basic reloading.
Consistent BC?
You don't get that with the simple buying of Berger bullets. Look at them on a shelf sometime. Notice each box has a BC declared.
You know they don't measure every bullet. It is an average for some in lot. It is also VERY 'complicated' to measure BC.
That said, I love Berger bullets and have no problem with them personally.
But for a general claim that simply buying a brand get's you consistent BC, then I would expect you to be sitting on a huge lot of Clinch River or maybe a special run of BIB bullets.
Outside of qualifying every attribute contributing to BC, on every single bullet, you could tip or point off qualified ogive radius for each. That would help, but that is still more complicated than buying boxes of Bergers.
Did you comment directly on his YouTube post so he can make his rebuttal to you?
nksmfamjp
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2004
- Messages
- 3,200
@Mikecr
I think we took him differently.
First of all, the video POV is directed at PRS folks running full custom rifles from a guy who is shooting Fclass open. That means a truly consistent 1moa rifle is a winner.
Lapua brass and Berger bullets are a true shortcut here. Lapua brass is the most consistent ootb brass I have ever run. It gives a very consistent base that lasts many reloads without a crazy high cost. A person can try to recut and cull cheaper brass to get that level of precision, but it is a crap shoot and a huge waste of time and mone.
Bergers are known to have extremely consistent BC's in their match bullets. I'm sure someone is close and recutting bullets may make them better….but Bergers can and do shoot winners circle groups in 1 moa matches.
He makes some good basic points about long range load development. Get the ES /sd right….(for 20 shots)
Play with seating depth and tuner to get best accuracy .
That will generally get a person in hunting or PRS level tune.
I think we took him differently.
First of all, the video POV is directed at PRS folks running full custom rifles from a guy who is shooting Fclass open. That means a truly consistent 1moa rifle is a winner.
Lapua brass and Berger bullets are a true shortcut here. Lapua brass is the most consistent ootb brass I have ever run. It gives a very consistent base that lasts many reloads without a crazy high cost. A person can try to recut and cull cheaper brass to get that level of precision, but it is a crap shoot and a huge waste of time and mone.
Bergers are known to have extremely consistent BC's in their match bullets. I'm sure someone is close and recutting bullets may make them better….but Bergers can and do shoot winners circle groups in 1 moa matches.
He makes some good basic points about long range load development. Get the ES /sd right….(for 20 shots)
Play with seating depth and tuner to get best accuracy .
That will generally get a person in hunting or PRS level tune.
MagnumManiac
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2008
- Messages
- 5,588
It would be awesome if we ALL were sponsored by these companies like he is…I agree with what he is saying in general, but it is far more complicated than he is saying. Does he ONLY shoot brass straight outta the box?
Cheers.
Cheers.
I did not view it as such. He broke it down into three areas, but we all know the intricacies of each. At the ~5:40 mark, he said his brass prep is "literally" opening the box, which means he still does some brass prep. I viewed it as starting with quality components - Brux barrel, Berger bullets, Lapua brass, etc. Most of us locked into him simplifying it into 3 areas, but I do not think that is what he is saying. For a <10-minute video, he gets people's attention and points across; he would lose people's interest, including myself, in anything longer and more detailed.
Cheers!
lesvoth
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2017
- Messages
- 58
As has been said - He's not all wrong -
I got involved in the long range/PRS game in 2016, twisting myself into a pretzel in my reloading space, then straightening myself back out again. I actually shot an honest .200 group with my first comp gun, a semi custom 6.5 Creed.
(It was a trued Remington SA w/a 27.5" Krieger, a custom trigger, and five X fired triple-prepped-massaged Hornady brass.)
Last year, after shooting a 6 Creed for a number of years, I switched to "The Easy Button" 6mmBR. There wasn't one itota of interest left in my bones for tuning, tweaking, etc. Blue box Lapua brass, yellow box 105 hybrids, Varget - 30 grains, and a 450.
Jerk the barrel if it's already on, use your fingers to determine "stick point" with a loaded-long case, load close, but not into the lands - go shoot until your barrel dies. That load shoots perfectly in my three BRs, and I've had it - that load - out to 1107 yards - on purpose. All three were cut with the same reamer.
A week ago I took a 6mmBR rifle (Bartlein 27.5" HV 8 twist) that hadn't been cleaned for 500 rounds, leftover ammo that was loaded last summer, and shot a 194 3X at 600 yards in the first F-Class match of my life. The next two strings were 187 & 184 with factory Lapua ammo that was running 181 FPS slower than last year's handloads.
The only brass prep I've ever done with the 6mmBR was to size new cases with a Micron Precision FL bushing die and trim them to the same length - whatever that is.
There was a mention of sponsorship . . . It's not what most folks think. I worked with one of the companies that people solicited sponsorships from. If you're lucky you get a slight discount - if you're sponsored. It ain't freebies galore.
As for Cortina? He might wear the jersey, but I'd take his real world income over a discount sponsorship any day! That man works for his component money! And anyone who wins the World F-Class Championship, and is willing to share his knowledge, might be worth listening to . . .
I got involved in the long range/PRS game in 2016, twisting myself into a pretzel in my reloading space, then straightening myself back out again. I actually shot an honest .200 group with my first comp gun, a semi custom 6.5 Creed.
(It was a trued Remington SA w/a 27.5" Krieger, a custom trigger, and five X fired triple-prepped-massaged Hornady brass.)
Last year, after shooting a 6 Creed for a number of years, I switched to "The Easy Button" 6mmBR. There wasn't one itota of interest left in my bones for tuning, tweaking, etc. Blue box Lapua brass, yellow box 105 hybrids, Varget - 30 grains, and a 450.
Jerk the barrel if it's already on, use your fingers to determine "stick point" with a loaded-long case, load close, but not into the lands - go shoot until your barrel dies. That load shoots perfectly in my three BRs, and I've had it - that load - out to 1107 yards - on purpose. All three were cut with the same reamer.
A week ago I took a 6mmBR rifle (Bartlein 27.5" HV 8 twist) that hadn't been cleaned for 500 rounds, leftover ammo that was loaded last summer, and shot a 194 3X at 600 yards in the first F-Class match of my life. The next two strings were 187 & 184 with factory Lapua ammo that was running 181 FPS slower than last year's handloads.
The only brass prep I've ever done with the 6mmBR was to size new cases with a Micron Precision FL bushing die and trim them to the same length - whatever that is.
There was a mention of sponsorship . . . It's not what most folks think. I worked with one of the companies that people solicited sponsorships from. If you're lucky you get a slight discount - if you're sponsored. It ain't freebies galore.
As for Cortina? He might wear the jersey, but I'd take his real world income over a discount sponsorship any day! That man works for his component money! And anyone who wins the World F-Class Championship, and is willing to share his knowledge, might be worth listening to . . .
I don't like the "buy the best components out there" mentality. What is the point of all these tools we have if not to shape cheaper components into better quality components, make a cheap average rifle shoot better than it's pedigree says it should?
8x68s
Well-Known Member
Mike:
You can be rough as a cob at times but I appreciate the deeper thinking you employ to any given subject. Keep up the good work, sir!
Greg
I personally like to take some the guess work out of the equation. I understand and admire those that like to experiment and take something that is not known for great performance and improve it. I appreciate candid explanations on the fundamentals of load development. It doesn't have to be hard to make it worthwhile.
