Cold gun issues

[Mike 338]

I've seen patterns like that when a guy lays the gun over the bags on the first shot but allows the gun/barrel to slip backwards and make contact with the bags on successive shots, moving those shots up. Even a free floated barrel can make contact with the stock if the shooter has a tendency to really lay into the gun as he gets a little warmed up. Another thing I've seen is the target itself changing position as it gets hit by bullets. Also, when I can't figure out why my gun won't shoot right, I always do a primer test by loading up about 7 shots of every type of primer I can get my hands on. One other thing to try is experimenting with a contact point at the tip of the stock so the stock and barrel make about 10 lbs of contact pressure. That's more or less how many Ruger 77's come because according to Ruger, they shoot better that way. Could have something to do with that unconventional angled action screw.

 

[GPR23]

Here is today's group on the left. I removed action from stock, torqued the screws to 60in-lbs on the front and rear, then 30 on the center. I took a lot of precaution to make sure the action was as centered in the stock since it isn't bedded anymore.

To answer some questions, all groups are shot off a bi-pod and bag laying prone at 100 yards. This is my preferred way to shoot/sight in rifles. Also to make sure it wasn't me jerking the trigger on the first shot i do several dry fire practice rounds. I have also taken out another gun and shoot really nice tight group before testing this gun. Same result in that the first rounds is low right, second round is usually high.

I'm sorta fed up with the gun and feel like I'm wasting ammo at this point. If anyone wants to buy a ruger 22-250 let me know, shoots real nice...... in the summer.

Really the only other thing I can think to try is a new scope, but i don't see how a scope could possibly ever cause this problem.

 

[26Reload]

Yep...a problem child....
At hunt camp I was asked to figure out why the guys 300weebee wouldnt hold zero.....so between shooting it and my rifle and another for cool down time...i had probably shot it 10 times....two held together third drifted...same several times....while my rifle and other shot fine....
It wasn't til I got extremely baffled that i turned the rifle down low at the sun and found the problem......a broken crosshair.....so the rifle was doing its best...but the scope and its years had a problem....new scope, sited and dead critters.......this time the rifle and scope outlived the owner.......unfortunatelly.....

 

[Hand Skills]

Scopes are far more complex mechanical instruments than rifles. We often take them for granted, and assume a problem with the rifle or load. However, from a holistic perspective, sighting systems are far more likely to fail.

 

[Doublezranch]

Sometimes I've seen bipods creative these types of problems. Each bipod likes a particular "load" it needs to equal out forces on the end of the stock. Pushing, pulling, or twisting can create pressure points. I find myself struggling with this sometimes. I'm certainly not saying this is your issue, but it's something to consider.

 

[Mike 338]

Here is today's group on the left. I removed action from stock, torqued the screws to 60in-lbs on the front and rear, then 30 on the center. I took a lot of precaution to make sure the action was as centered in the stock since it isn't bedded anymore.

To answer some questions, all groups are shot off a bi-pod and bag laying prone at 100 yards. This is my preferred way to shoot/sight in rifles. Also to make sure it wasn't me jerking the trigger on the first shot i do several dry fire practice rounds. I have also taken out another gun and shoot really nice tight group before testing this gun. Same result in that the first rounds is low right, second round is usually high.

I'm sorta fed up with the gun and feel like I'm wasting ammo at this point. If anyone wants to buy a ruger 22-250 let me know, shoots real nice...... in the summer.

Really the only other thing I can think to try is a new scope, but i don't see how a scope could possibly ever cause this problem.

Hmmm, is it bipod or is it bag? Is it bipod laid over a bag or just bipod removed and laid over a bag? Oh... and a new barrel... how tight is it torqued down? I've read how sometimes, a barrel that isn't twisted down "real tight" has some first shot problems. Could explain why Steyr puts a barrel on with both heat and torque.

Also... I had a rifle that shot really great, but when heated up, it would walk to the right. Like a dope, I tried to fix it. Well, "fix" isn't what I got. I could have planned and calculated first, second and third shots with extreme accuracy. Now I don't know where it's going. Hey friends, just cause you gott'a double-clutch your rig to get it up a hill, doesn't mean it's a lame rig. Just might be the best rig in the line.

 

[brentc]

Have you tried different primers?

 

[jaybo]

Had a similar problem years ago with a Sako 85 270win with a Zeiss conquest 4x14x50 scope on it. It always liked 3 fouling shots then would shoot 1/2 to 3/4 groups. Missed a doe at 200 yards shooting out of a box stand with a good rest one day and couldn't figure out what happened. I thought I had gotten water down the barrel as it was raining a lot that week. Cleaned it, shot 3 fouling shots then went to our camp range and it was way off. Long story short, the scope had a broken spring and every time the rifle was set on its side or turned upside down it threw the scope off. Three shots settled the cross hairs back in place until the rifle was moved again. When riding to my stand on the four wheeler I hang the rifle upside down on my neck to lesson the bouncing on the rifle. Each time I did that I didn't have a chance of hitting anything. Sent the scope in, new spring, and no more problems.
My groups always started high then got lower with each shot. The third shot was on and all others followed, until I flipped the rifle.
Try a proven scope before you get to drastic with the rifle.

 

[WildRose]

I have ran into an odd situation. I have done a lot of testing in the past two weeks trying to figure out the cause. I have gotten it better but still has an issue.

To start with I had acquired a Ruger M77 MKII 22-250. I replaced the barrel with a Mcgowen in Sendero profile, lightened the trigger, and put it in a Hogue full aluminum bed stock. I did the standard load testing and came up with a very accurate load shooting 53gr v-max. I thought I would try making it more accurate and bedded the action, but really didn't result in any improvements and cause some headaches.

The problem I have is when the gun is warm, such as a 70-80 degree day (when I did load development) the gun will shoot great. However, if the gun is cold the first shot is always low out of the group. Then the next few will settle down and shoot in the normal group.

To test what the cause of the large spread I have done several test first thing in the morning. I would leave either the gun and ammo, just the ammo or just the gun outside so it would be cold. I would fire 3-5 rounds and see how they performed. The ammo grouped the same whether cold or hot, but if the gun was cold it always shoots the first shot low. When the gun is warm I don't see the issues.

I have included a picture of this morning's test. I also labeled the shots. Normally they aren't vertically strung out this perfect.

What would cause this? I was almost to the point of ordering another stock, but there really aren't many options for Ruger stocks with a heavy profile barrel.

Any ideas or suggestions on where to go? When warm, this gun is one of the most accurate guns I have. However, i built it as a coyote gun and i have no confidence in the first shot.

First thing I'd do is make sure it's fully free floated all the way back to the chamber.

Ruger's are not the easiest to bed due to the three trigger guard/action screws. You also need to double check your torque specs.

Lastly I'd check the bedding job itself. Somehow you make have inadvertantly created a pressure point that is now stressing the action.

Can you perhaps provide pictures of your bedding job with the action pulled and setting next to the stock lined up with the action screws as though it were mounted?

 

[WildRose]

Here is a group, when i first started to notice something off. The first group is the bottom left. Second group is bottom right. Third group is top right (and yes that is a 3 shot group I wouldn't have believed it myself, but i was shooting a target on a bucket and the backside you could clearly see 3 bullets exit), then the last group is top left. It isn't as great as i was in a time crunch and rushed them.

I'd take that top right group all day long. Which is/are the cold bore group/groups?

 

[WildRose]

The front tang screw I always torque to 90in lbs as i believe that is what ruger recommends. the other two i have done differently. This last time after removing the bedding i put them hand tight.

I would suggest you pick a number between 40-60 for all three and see what that does for you.

 

[WildRose]

Had a similar problem years ago with a Sako 85 270win with a Zeiss conquest 4x14x50 scope on it. It always liked 3 fouling shots then would shoot 1/2 to 3/4 groups. Missed a doe at 200 yards shooting out of a box stand with a good rest one day and couldn't figure out what happened. I thought I had gotten water down the barrel as it was raining a lot that week. Cleaned it, shot 3 fouling shots then went to our camp range and it was way off. Long story short, the scope had a broken spring and every time the rifle was set on its side or turned upside down it threw the scope off. Three shots settled the cross hairs back in place until the rifle was moved again. When riding to my stand on the four wheeler I hang the rifle upside down on my neck to lesson the bouncing on the rifle. Each time I did that I didn't have a chance of hitting anything. Sent the scope in, new spring, and no more problems.
My groups always started high then got lower with each shot. The third shot was on and all others followed, until I flipped the rifle.
Try a proven scope before you get to drastic with the rifle.

I will put a few foulers through all of mine. I hate clean barrels as they always change with very few exceptions after the first few shots.

 

[26Reload]

My wife's 260 is a compact ruger with three screws....
As long as i torque the front and back the middle screw does nothing other than help hold the bottom metal in place......
There's another test.....leave the middle screw out and see what happens......

The other day before leaving on a hunt I cleaned the barrels(3 rifles) with wipe out...
When i got to the mountain I put rounds through the barrels of all three...all shot right on the money.....no fouler shots....but now they did....normally I don't clean til finished hunting..but i had been out in the brush and in the rain......a little cleaning was warranted....even to myself....

 

[GPR23]

I bought some Hornady ammo to test with. Same issue as before. First shot low, then shots 2 and 3 went in the same hole, attached is a picture of the group. Thus i have completely eliminated any issue ammo related.

I pulled the scope and put on an extra i had laying around. Went and sighted it in and got some decent groups. I will leave it out in the cold to test tomorrow morning.