Cleaning with patches only

[Rflshootr]

I have heard through internet chatter where folks have claimed this. However, It would take a lot of stroking in my experience to deform a barrel surface with ordinary cleaning. Most barrels are shot out and replaced in competition service well before this would ever occur. Just saying.

I'll tell you a little story.....The first 600 yard rifle that I built, was built on a Savage 110 action. That is what I had to use and funds were low. I found a guy selling a used Hart barrel that was chambered for a 6BR. It was off of his 1000 yard gun that had stopped shooting. He took it to his gunsmith who recommended that he install a new barrel. I bought the old one, cut new threads and rechambered. I decided to give it a new crown as well. I was wondering if it was a .236 or a .237 bore. I got out my gauge pins and found out that the bore was a .237 and that a .238 pin would go in the muzzle end about a 1/2". I chopped of 3/4" and recrowned. That rifle still aggs mid .2's to this day. I contacted the guy that I bought the barrel from and explained what was wrong with the barrel and he actually got ticked off to find out that was the problem and the gunsmith never checked it for that. So, now I own his hummer barrel. Oh and BTW, I paid $75 for that Hart barrel. Just saying.

 

[VinceMule]

Removing hard carbon, with bore scope video's





A new product on the market is Thurro Clean




Your education begins when you get a Teslong bore scope, best $89 you will ever invest in your shooting.

There are a lot of opinions out there on bore cleaning, but few are based on factual examination of their methods and results with the simple $89 bore scope like you see in Winning in the Winds videos.

 

[crkckr]

There is so much in the way of opinions floating around on this subject it's not even funny. I guess each one is a fact for whoever holds it but trying to convince someone else? Not a chance!

I have a really good Oly rigid scope (swap meet find) that really shows the detail. I ran a bronze brush down my Hart custom barrel just once (it was brand new) and will never do it again! It left small but obvious scratches all the way down the barrel. You'll have to take my word for it because I don't have, and cannot afford, a camera attachment for it.

While it's hard to believe that a nylon, bronze or bore snake could harm your barrel, they fact is they can. For that fact, so can a dirty, coated rod! They pick up the crud (that's a technical word by the way!) that gets left in your barrel and it's like valve grinding compound. Chances are good you will never notice it in a factory barrel that already looks like 20 miles of gravel road but if you have a hand lapped custom barrel... well it's your barrel, do what you like!

The way I clean all my accurate rifle barrels is to first use just a patch and something like Hoppe's #9 to get the majority of the actual debris left in barrel out. Then I use an undersized nylon brush wrapped with a patch and use one of several copper removers, such as Wipe Out (my #1 favorite), Montana Extreme Copper Killer, Hoppes Elite (slow, but works), Butches or Shooters Choice (both slow) or Sweets 7.62. All of these will remove the copper build up that's visible at the muzzle but can be hiding anywhere in the length of the barrel. And the fact is, that in most cases, just one of them will not get all the copper out! *With today's chemicals there is no need to scrub with any kind of brush!* If there is carbon left in the barrel then use a product such as BoreTech Carbon Remover or Slip 2000 Carbon Killer. RTFD for each chemical mentioned and do not exceed the times the manufacturer recomnends! Since I moly plate most of my rifle bullets, I usually need something in the way of JB Bore Cleaner if I want to get to bare metal. I always try the Bore Polish (purple) stuff first and if that doesn't do it, I use the Bore Cleaning Compound. Any of these chemicals can cause what looks like surface corrosion if left in the barrel to long, with the exception of Wipe Out, the only one I would (but don't) leave the barrel over nite (ok, I do in the SKS but it's an SKS!).

Everyone that shoots a custom rifle, or even a factory rifle that just happens to shoot really well (and yes, Virginia, it does happen!) will develope his or her own method of cleaning. I got mine from some benchresters years ago and stick with it because it works for me! Your mileage will likely be way, way different!
Cheers,
crkckr

 

[VinceMule]

CRK, I don't know what kind of brush you ran down that barrel, but Dewey, Pro shot, and Tipton brushes do not scratch barrels. I have Teslong and Hawkeye Bore scopes that magnify 25X.

I have a flock of the highest-quality Stainless barrels.

Rockwell hardness of 416 SS barrels can vary, and barrel makers are subject to whatever comes from the foundry. If a bronze bristle brush puts a bunch of scratches through the bore, I suspect that the foundry has sent out a batch of steel in the area of 19 Rockwell which would be softer than the average 416 SS. This soft steel batch happened around 15 years ago, and barrel makers got hammered with complaints.

I will be making some videos shortly documenting how some of the Snake Oil bore solvents do not get bores down to the bare metal, as it takes a mechanical action of some kind, like your patch wrapped around the plastic brush. I do believe that your patch on a plastic-brush method is a solid recommendation.

I have purchased many barrels that were take-offs where the owners cleaned with patches, the barrels quit shooting, and they assumed that the barrels were shot out. Some of the benchrest shooters that only clean with patches where they are cleaning every 7-12 rounds were still fouled badly over time. It is not worth a gunsmith's time to get the barrel clean.

Everyone has their own ideas of what is Good enough, but carbon builds up, getting extremely hard to remove over time as you know.

One thing for sure, with all those rod strokes down the bore, a rod guide with a bushing that goes in the back of the rod guide that centers the rod in the bore sure keeps the lands form wearing from 5 to 8 O'clock.

416 Stainless barrels run 24-26 Rockwell on an average, some may run 28. The soft barrels will run 19 and brushes will scratch them over time. The 19 Rockwell barrels are a mistake from the foundry as a rule.

Stainless Steel brushes should be outlawed because they will ruin a barrel within 20 cycles of the brush, I saw it done...hard head would not listen to me!

 

[the blur]

So theoretically speaking, if I only use patches, I will eventually get carbon buildup in the rifling ? Until the rifling is flush with the bore ?

 

[Tulsa Reiner]

I often clean other people's guns that thought they had shot out the barrell,bad rifle etc. because of bad accuracy. Ive always asked about their cleaning routine and asked if i could look at it first before they sold it,retired it or gave up on it. Almost always they thought that they had cleaned it properly and that wasnt the problem. the patches showed differently. Sometimes it wasnt their cleaning but that gun's accuracy always improved after i had cleaned it my way.. I use blue wonder,jags and bronze brushes for a deep cleaning when i suspect accuracy is changing. In between that just a couple wet patches of Hoppies #9 and WD-40 for rust prevention. Its the Levers and Auto's usally.

WD 40 for rust prevention??? It's a solvent, not a lubricant, and evaporates in a couple of weeks. Many people have the misimpression that it is analogous to oils, which it isn't.

 

[Shane Lindsey]

Hard to compare a bronze brush at .000tohardtomeasurewithmytools " that is designed that way to flex at 90 degrees or so from rod to a solid steel barrel.

Now I do not compete, however I have cleaned precision rifles for awhile. I will keep pushing bronze brushes through the bore and enjoy my cold one after while you boys pushing patches through are sweating through it.

 

[asd9055]

@VinceMule ever tried carburator cleaner on stubborn carbon buildup?

 

[VinceMule]

WD 40 is well known for rusting heck out of barrels, well known.

Blur, the generalization of cleaning with patches only and ending up in trouble with heavy carbon build-up, is not accurate due to the use of patches with JB, Iosso, Flitz Bore cleaner, Montana Extreme Copper cream, and JB(red)bore brite that can be used on patches with these mild abrasives.

The technique of wrapping a patch around a smaller caliber brush or worn brush is well known to clean the carbon out of stubborn carboned-up barrels.

A new product on the market is the Butches Twill patches, they clean more aggressively than standard flannel patches, but since the twill patches are thicker, you need to use smaller jags or brushes to use them with.

A couple of points I wanted to make, use of a bore scope will verify that your cleaning regiment is working for you, whatever it is. Second, the use of only patches and solvents will eventually leave a lot of carbon in the barrel if you do not monitor the build-up with a bore scope and remove the carbon with some of the excellent pastes available today.

This is just a hobby, and you take it to whatever level that peaks your interest.

Let me give you an example. I have a 308 with a very short freebore "Palma" chamber of sorts in a 28", 10T Krieger. The barrel has around 2000 rounds on it and still looks new in the throat. This barrel shoots the 169g, Sierra, touching the lands, with three different powders exceptionally well. At 200 yards, the barrel will shoot in the high 2's. At 300 yards, the barrel is shooting around 3/4", sometimes a tad smaller. Fast forward to after a 60-shot string on this particular barrel, and the groups are 3x larger. I am running a 10-50 Sightron III on the rig.

My 7 Mags are darn near exactly the same, but on 30 or so round intervals shooting IMR 4350 with 140's and Retumbo with 168s.

The 6 XC with H4350 seems to be the most forgiving, but the two 6 Dashers with H4895 are an absolute bitch to deal with concerning the carbon, and this cartridge has a 1400-round barrel life to the accuracy level I want to see, with the best accuracy in 1100 rounds..

I never worry about the copper as it is long gone prior to me dealing with the hard-cooked carbon.

Over the next few years, you will begin to see a lot of documentation on various cleaning methods in the Videos taken with the Teslong. I do expect to hear a lot of guys' testimonies on how they shot a lot better once they refined their cleaning regiment, verified by the bore scope.

Gun cleaning techniques are in their infant stages at this point which is accepted by shooters in general. The $89 dollar Teslong bore scope is going to change some attitudes as many learn that not having carbon in the barrel has a direct correlation to Accuracy.

You are always going to have guys that refuse to clean, and the other crowd that cleans whenever they lose accuracy. They are simply having fun with the hobby in their own way, nothing wrong with that.

 

[VinceMule]

asd, we used GM Top Engine Cleaner and Mercury Out Board Motor Carb cleaner for a long while, and the stuff works in spades!

Here are issues with that product, it removes Oxygen from the air, so if you are cleaning in the enclosed garage, you are going to have some breathing problems. Another thing, these two products go through the skin and go directly to the Kidney walls, so wear rubber gloves when you use them.

Some of the chemicals used to clean guns with cause cancer, and using cheap rubber gloves can help, but I should have been dead a long time ago.

 

[asd9055]

asd, we used GM Top Engine Cleaner and Mercury Out Board Motor Carb cleaner for a long while, and the stuff works in spades!

Here are issues with that product, it removes Oxygen from the air, so if you are cleaning in the enclosed garage, you are going to have some breathing problems. Another thing, these two products go through the skin and go directly to the Kidney walls, so wear rubber gloves when you use them.

Some of the chemicals used to clean guns with cause cancer, and using cheap rubber gloves can help, but I should have been dead a long time ago.

Thanks. I heard of it discussed a few times, and did a quick experiment last night. Had a carbon ring that was rmeoved with minimal effort. Teslong confirmed.

 

[VinceMule]

So theoretically speaking, if I only use patches, I will eventually get carbon buildup in the rifling ? Until the rifling is flush with the bore ?

I want to go back to this question. I bought a Rem 7400 in 30/06 from a friend's wife. The friend had deer hunted with the rifle for years, never been cleaned. The gun was shooting around 6" groups which served him well for his 50-75 yard shots he made on deer.

I brushed the barrel with a new Dewey bronze bristle brush till the brush was worn out, then inspected it with the Teslong. The barrel looked to have no lands as the carbon build-up was as tall as the lands. So, I took that same bronze brush that was worn and loaded it full of JB. I scrubbed till the brush was loose, adding more JB from time to time. Then washed the JB out of the barrel. Carbon was coming out, slowly. I really hate this scrubbing crap. I plugged the barrel with a cork and filled the bore full of the Penetrating oil, Free All. I let the barrel sit for a month or so.

Next, I have some Rem Clean which is the most aggressive abrasive I have. I put the Rem clean on a new brush, and scrubbed more, wearing out the brush, then examined. Carbon was coming out. I took the handle off of a Stainless steel Pro shot cleaning rod, and used a new brush loaded with Rem Clean, powered by a 1/2" drill. I ran the drill at half speed, till the brush got loose, then examined it. The barrel was just about 100% down to the bare metal, success at last, but now the moment of truth to see if I had ruined the barrel.

150g Hornady flat base with 59g of IMR 4350 was shooting 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with no load development after the cleaning, and I am happy for the intended use of the 30/06, 7400. Also, there was no scratching of the lands at 25x in the bore scope from using the aggressive method, but cleaning from the muzzle is never a good thing.

 

[ndking1126]

I used to hold generally the same opinion, and in the short term you are right. I learned eventually you will run into issues. Unless you use some of the really good chemicals, you'll likely have enough build up that accuracy will degrade. I also had a rifle that I never brushed develop the dreaded carbon ring.

Here's a video of my dad's rifle. He cleans it after almost every trip to the range with bristles and Hoppes #9 and it still was really bad. (skip to the middle to see where it starts getting bad)


I use nylon brushes every few cleanings. I don't like the bronze ones personally.

 

[asd9055]

I used to hold generally the same opinion, and in the short term you are right. I learned eventually you will run into issues. Unless you use some of the really good chemicals, you'll likely have enough build up that accuracy will degrade. I also had a rifle that I never brushed develop the dreaded carbon ring.

Here's a video of my dad's rifle. He cleans it after almost every trip to the range with bristles and Hoppes #9 and it still was really bad. (skip to the middle to see where it starts getting bad)


I use nylon brushes every few cleanings. I don't like the bronze ones personally.

I hoped you cleaned it for him