Bore/inside barrel treatment question

[BergerBoy]

Hey Guys,
Thanks for your time and I hope you can help me with my question:
I have never used any oil products to saturate the inside of my barrels prior to shooting bc I do not want anything to change or make the barring surface uneven. For example, I only just use Bore tech carbon remover when I clean my rifle. Unless I am copper fouling. I try to only remove the carbon so that I have minimum POI shift the next time I shoot my rifle and I have had good luck with this method....
My brother just bought me some slip2000 EWL and I read that they recommend treating the inside of the barrel before shooting.... I just think that if it doesn't burn off within a couple rounds it could hurt accuracy because some copper is needed to line the inside your barrel for accuracy IMO.
When I spoke with Todd Hodnet at SHOT he said he just removes the carbon and leaves most of the copper unless fouling bad.
I know if it's not broke, don't fix it but I just wanted to know what y'all thought about it and what your experiences were with this.
Thank you for your time.

 

[J E Custom]

Hey Guys,
Thanks for your time and I hope you can help me with my question:
I have never used any oil products to saturate the inside of my barrels prior to shooting bc I do not want anything to change or make the barring surface uneven. For example, I only just use Bore tech carbon remover when I clean my rifle. Unless I am copper fouling. I try to only remove the carbon so that I have minimum POI shift the next time I shoot my rifle and I have had good luck with this method....
My brother just bought me some slip2000 EWL and I read that they recommend treating the inside of the barrel before shooting.... I just think that if it doesn't burn off within a couple rounds it could hurt accuracy because some copper is needed to line the inside your barrel for accuracy IMO.
When I spoke with Todd Hodnet at SHOT he said he just removes the carbon and leaves most of the copper unless fouling bad.
I know if it's not broke, don't fix it but I just wanted to know what y'all thought about it and what your experiences were with this.
Thank you for your time.

In my opinion . A clean barrel is always the best for accuracy and repeatability.

A properly broke in barrel does not need any copper or coatings to improve it, I have tried many of these and found that they created "More and different problems" and some were hard to remove to return to the barrels original performance.

All of the best groups ( Many under 1/10th MOA ) that I have shot were in a clean barrel.

Some treatments will increase velocity slightly or supposed to increase barrel life, But in my experience they have effected accuracy and did not prolong usable barrel life.

I have also tried coated bullets and found no real improvements in accuracy and found it more difficult to clean the barrel.

I have always been interested in improvements and tried anything that sounded reasonable
but always ended up back to the clean barrel. I also use Bore tech as one of the solvents(Depending
on the severity of the fouling) and have been very pleased with it's results.

Just an Opinion based on over 50 years of shooting and re loading

J E CUSTOM

 

[Mateo]

I use EEZOX. It imitates a pre fouled bore and puts my cold bore shot right with the others. And it protects against moisture extremely well. I wipe down all metal parts of my rifle with it.

 

[BergerBoy]

Thanks guys....

 

[FearNoWind]

In my opinion . A clean barrel is always the best for accuracy and repeatability.
...
Just an Opinion based on over 50 years of shooting and re loading

J E CUSTOM

Right on, JC. Together, you and I have a hundred years of shooting experience and with the words you've offered here nothing further needs to be said, IMO.
A quality barrel is, in my experience, less prone to copper fouling. But I do occasionally get some copper fouling in a new barrel - even from the best barrel makers so I have used some of David Tubb's stuff - but it's rarely necessary.

 

[Mikecr]

A clean barrel is always the best for accuracy and repeatability.

This is not true, so maybe I'm missing your context here.

-A clean bore will have to be fouled, stable in fouling, and of correct fouling, before multi-shot best can be expected of it.
-Stable fouling cannot occur until any petroleum/cleaning products present are burned out.
-The correct fouling closely matches fouling produced by the load powder. Copper is NOT correct fouling. There is NOTHING 'good' about copper in the bore.
Maybe that's what you meant JE?

And it is possible to dry prefoul a clean bore without shooting, and for storage. I've done this for probably ~30years with tungsten disulphide(WS2). So far it's matched every powder fouling I've employed, to mitigate a need for prefouling shots. It also cleans out just like normal powder fouling(unlike moly). I don't have a need so haven't tried EEZOX.

 

[BergerBoy]

This is not true, so maybe I'm missing your context here.

-A clean bore will have to be fouled, stable in fouling, and of correct fouling, before multi-shot best can be expected of it.
-Stable fouling cannot occur until any petroleum/cleaning products present are burned out.
-The correct fouling closely matches fouling produced by the load powder. Copper is NOT correct fouling. There is NOTHING 'good' about copper in the bore.
Maybe that's what you meant JE?

And it is possible to dry prefoul a clean bore without shooting, and for storage. I've done this for probably ~30years with tungsten disulphide(WS2). So far it's matched every powder fouling I've employed, to mitigate a need for prefouling shots. It also cleans out just like normal powder fouling(unlike moly). I don't have a need so haven't tried EEZOX.

I think bench-rest shooters come from a different idealogy than a.... Tactical or higher rate shooter. A small amount of copper IS good for accuracy and life of the barrel. If you are set up to take and make a clean bore (witch is different than cold bore)shot like a bench rest shooter than take it and keep on doing what you do. If you need MINIMUM POI shift and your first shot could be life and death than I want my rifle- that has copper in the barrel, (not fouled)
to make the shots needed.
We can go back and forth all day long. I don't like to promote many things but Mag Pull has a great video with Todd Hodnet called Art of the Precision Rifle if you haven't had the chance to look at it- Todd goes into detail about cold bore vs clean bore and why he likes a small amount of copper in his barrels etc...
Thank you for you input. I am and always will be a student of this sport/life style.

 

[Dgd6mm]

I use EEZOX. It imitates a pre fouled bore and puts my cold bore shot right with the others. And it protects against moisture extremely well. I wipe down all metal parts of my rifle with it.

I have a friend that does this and has shot more coldbore X's then you have pockets to carry the medallions.

 

[J E Custom]

This is not true, so maybe I'm missing your context here.

-A clean bore will have to be fouled, stable in fouling, and of correct fouling, before multi-shot best can be expected of it.
-Stable fouling cannot occur until any petroleum/cleaning products present are burned out.
-The correct fouling closely matches fouling produced by the load powder. Copper is NOT correct fouling. There is NOTHING 'good' about copper in the bore.
Maybe that's what you meant JE?

And it is possible to dry prefoul a clean bore without shooting, and for storage. I've done this for probably ~30years with tungsten disulphide(WS2). So far it's matched every powder fouling I've employed, to mitigate a need for prefouling shots. It also cleans out just like normal powder fouling(unlike moly). I don't have a need so haven't tried EEZOX.

Sorry I don't agree because there is no correct or consistent fouling, Only Fouling.

My experience has shone that some barrels are at there best cold bore and clean. Other barrels need a fouling shot first and then settle in to really shoot good groups. after 4 0r 5 shots some start to degrade as fouling gets worse and after 7 or 8 shots they settle in to shoot very consistent strings but the groups are never as good as the groups that start with a clean barrel.

All barrels are different (I have both the first shot barrels and the fouling shot barrels) but they all
have the same accuracy loss after they get fouled (4 or 5 shots to 8 or more depending on the barrels ability not to foul.

Factory barrels normally do shoot better with some fouling because of the internal finish and tool marks. A good quality custom barrel is a different beast all together because they are normally hand lapped, and have a finish that is resistant to fouling.

With out any exception, all of my best rifles/pistols have/do shoot better groups with clean barrels.

Fouling, by nature is inconsistent. clean is clean and very consistent because irregularities are not present in the barrel if it is not fouled. I consider a barrel that has to be fouled to shoot, ether a poor quality barrel or it needs better ammo to make it shoot before it is fouled badly.

Most Bench rest shooters clean between every round and have a cleaning regiment that they strictly adhere to so there is shot to shot accuracy.

If copper was good for accuracy, It would be a simple process to copper plate all barrels.

The rule is, there is no rule when it comes to different barrels. and what works for one, doesn't work for every barrel. In the name of our game (Long Range Hunting) consistency is everything, velocity is next. If you look in a fouled barrel with a bore scope there is nothing consistent about the fouling. It is random and can change from shot to shot.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

 

[FEENIX]

Sorry I don't agree because there is no correct or consistent fouling, Only Fouling.

My experience has shone that some barrels are at there best cold bore and clean. Other barrels need a fouling shot first and then settle in to really shoot good groups. after 4 0r 5 shots some start to degrade as fouling gets worse and after 7 or 8 shots they settle in to shoot very consistent strings but the groups are never as good as the groups that start with a clean barrel.

All barrels are different (I have both the first shot barrels and the fouling shot barrels) but they all
have the same accuracy loss after they get fouled (4 or 5 shots to 8 or more depending on the barrels ability not to foul.

Factory barrels normally do shoot better with some fouling because of the internal finish and tool marks. A good quality custom barrel is a different beast all together because they are normally hand lapped, and have a finish that is resistant to fouling.

With out any exception, all of my best rifles/pistols have/do shoot better groups with clean barrels.

Fouling, by nature is inconsistent. clean is clean and very consistent because irregularities are not present in the barrel if it is not fouled. I consider a barrel that has to be fouled to shoot, ether a poor quality barrel or it needs better ammo to make it shoot before it is fouled badly.

Most Bench rest shooters clean between every round and have a cleaning regiment that they strictly adhere to so there is shot to shot accuracy.

If copper was good for accuracy, It would be a simple process to copper plate all barrels.

The rule is, there is no rule when it comes to different barrels. and what works for one, doesn't work for every barrel. In the name of our game (Long Range Hunting) consistency is everything, velocity is next. If you look in a fouled barrel with a bore scope there is nothing consistent about the fouling. It is random and can change from shot to shot.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

Well said Sir!

 

[Edd]

Anyone ever use colloidal graphite on the bore during break in?

 

[rcoody]

Sorry I don't agree because there is no correct or consistent fouling, Only Fouling.

My experience has shone that some barrels are at there best cold bore and clean. Other barrels need a fouling shot first and then settle in to really shoot good groups. after 4 0r 5 shots some start to degrade as fouling gets worse and after 7 or 8 shots they settle in to shoot very consistent strings but the groups are never as good as the groups that start with a clean barrel.

All barrels are different (I have both the first shot barrels and the fouling shot barrels) but they all
have the same accuracy loss after they get fouled (4 or 5 shots to 8 or more depending on the barrels ability not to foul.

Factory barrels normally do shoot better with some fouling because of the internal finish and tool marks. A good quality custom barrel is a different beast all together because they are normally hand lapped, and have a finish that is resistant to fouling.

With out any exception, all of my best rifles/pistols have/do shoot better groups with clean barrels.

Fouling, by nature is inconsistent. clean is clean and very consistent because irregularities are not present in the barrel if it is not fouled. I consider a barrel that has to be fouled to shoot, ether a poor quality barrel or it needs better ammo to make it shoot before it is fouled badly.

Most Bench rest shooters clean between every round and have a cleaning regiment that they strictly adhere to so there is shot to shot accuracy.

If copper was good for accuracy, It would be a simple process to copper plate all barrels.

The rule is, there is no rule when it comes to different barrels. and what works for one, doesn't work for every barrel. In the name of our game (Long Range Hunting) consistency is everything, velocity is next. If you look in a fouled barrel with a bore scope there is nothing consistent about the fouling. It is random and can change from shot to shot.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

I am in total agreement here. It is like finding that magic bullet, powder, charge and COL all barrels are different. You have to find what your barrel likes.

I believe a clean barrel shoots best!

but then all my barrels are custom hand lapped barrels.

 

[J E Custom]

Anyone ever use colloidal graphite on the bore during break in?

I would think that anything in the bore would impede the brake in process. so 'No' I have never tried
anything in a new barrel during break in.

The idea of a brake in is to let the bullet do the final finish in the bore without firing any more shots than necessary.

On really bad fouling factory barrels I have used Molly to treat and fill machine marks and had some success with it. but that stuff hangs on like ticks on a dogs back and is very hard to remove with cleaning. It did work very well on my muzzle loaders and aloud many more shots before they became fouled so bad you could not load them safely. (Most muzzle loaders will reach this point after 3 or 4 shots If using Black Powder).

Just my opinion
J E CUSTOM

 

[Mikecr]

I'm sticking by my earlier declarations. Anyone here is welcome to poll Benchrest Central & I'm confident you'll find the same.

While many SR BR shooters do clean between relays, they foul their bores before taking record shots. LR BR shooters, in many formats, establish good fouling and leave it alone through multiple relays or even a match.
Tactical competitors often tout huge strings before cleaning, and many claim COPPER fouling is needed. But IMO this is really them seeing a lot of copper in their bores -by the time they clean them, and fails tests by virtue that both SR & LR BR shooters do not allow much if any copper buildup.

Various powders produce different fouling. If you work up loads for a bore with two different powders(like Reloader -vs- Hodgdon), you can't just switch back & forth with these loads, without cleaning between, and get the best from both loads. You'll end up with unstable fouling if you do this, and it will affect results (where you're shooting well enough to detect it).

I do a lot of cold bore testing, and I know for sure there can be a significant difference between a squeaky clean bore and a fouled bore. Pretty sure many shooters know this(maybe millions), as it is common practice & advice to prefoul a gun before taking hunting shots. It's known that you should prefoul with the same powder before load development.
And ANY BR shooter that would include a squeaky clean shot in measured groups -is a fool (they ought to know better).

As far as copper fouling, it's pretty common to reach 'fouling out' from copper in factory barrels. That is, by 15-20rnds (example) grouping takes a hike. Here, good grouping doesn't return until that copper is removed, and stable fouling re-established. And you gotta get whatever cleaning agent back out of that bore before stable fouling can take a set. So often a factory gun will shoot a couple crappy groups from 'cleaned', followed by a couple good groups, and then the grouping falls all apart. Consider this with load development..
The same happens with well lapped aftermarket barrels, but the numbers are different across the board,, especially as managed by competitors. They shoot their best with the right amount of fouling(stable). It takes some number of shots to establish it. It lasts as long as it does. It doesn't last forever. Competitors(who are competitive) are all over this as they can see their best come & go.

Carbon, if allowed to build in excess, is the ultimate killer of bore performance.
Where you don't manage carbon, it builds & builds to constriction. By this time, removing it can damage the bore. Damned if you do or don't.. Where you don't let it build, you're rewarded with maximum accurate barrel life.
Moly might as well be considered a form of carbon as it builds(layers), and is nearly as difficult to remove by then. It's difficult to remove anyway, so use of moly should be done with a good moly cleaning and moly refouling plan(which is different).