Bone to pick with new rifle owners - 100 yards out of the box

[sierracharlie338]

Take it one step further and look on youtube at some of the venerable experts who've been shooting or reloading a few weeks who've decided to teach the world what they know. Albeit, a few really know what they're doing, but a number of them simply like to make videos of themselves.

So true

 

[usmc1383]

Well we hunt elk in Silverton Colorado on the north east side of the mountain. We usually hunt them with a bow but if I had to use a rifle I think the further shout feet may be 74 yards we used 243 single shot they don't even move. It just dropped with 100 grain bullet, we get our limit every year. It's kinda cool when you wake up in the morning in your tent, they go away around you they come down from the mountain to migrate down during the winter time. My girls love it a lot they prefer using bows. I should be taking my grandson this season. He's five years old. He's all excited when I take the kids out it's all about the kids try to teach them the old way to do it. the right way and the courteous way happy hunting always

 

[XxaquadogxX]

Not everyone has a mentor, or family member who can show them how hunting works. It's trial and error for them unless you're trying to help these new hunters become better it might be best not to say anything negative. We need new hunters coming into our sport/lifestyle. Otherwise we're doomed. Think before you speak.

I did not have anybody to teach me how to hunt, or shoot. When I worked at an archery shop I would see people come in the day before season opened, stick a paper plate on the backstop and if they hit it they called it good. I agree that we need more hunters, shooters and archers. In order to sustain the sports we need more mentors. As much as we need more people in those sports, we definitely need less of the unethical, and dangerous. Make it better, help somebody be better at what they want to do.

 

[Turpentine21]

I've made this offer to assist with reloading instead of actually doing the reloading.
I always hear excuses of why they can't do it so they continue to shoot factory ammo.
Time is an investment that most aren't willing to do when it comes to reloading and shooting. Gotta like doing it

You're right. So many people don't realize the time it takes for me just to do brass prep. That's only part of the equation. Then throw in the fact that I'm gonna be just as precise or even more so loading for someone else. Good, quality reloading is a time consuming process. Then there's liability. Even if they just miss. It's a slippery slope

 

[ChrisInKY]

Actually they do! I've seen a great many excellent paper killers. ..that can't hit a live target at 50 yards ......

Truer words ...

Heart rate's up. Adrenaline. Breathing funny. Noodle arms. Tunnel vision.

There's no better way to learn than through experience. Experience breeds familiarity. Familiarity naturally peels back the bad symptoms. People lose their very lives to those same things when they get stuck or lost or hurt out in the woods. A good guide will talk the new guys through all this stuff ... at least those who are honest with the guide from the get-go ... so it doesn't come as a surprise.

 

[ChrisInKY]

Years ago my buddy would laugh when I was practicing with my bow because I was shooting 60-70 yards. I explained that I wasn't going to be shooting a deer that far but 30-40 yards will seem like a chip shot.
Practice farther than you plan to shoot game is a great formula for success.
And I have noticed that word PRACTICE has been mentioned quite frequently in this thread.

Our bow range is 60 yards. It's hardly used. I like to back up til I'm at 90 or 100. A miss means you're back in the woods looking for your arrow for 20 or 30 minutes. It pays not to miss. And, anyone who sees what you're doing will later point you out as the guy who doesn't miss.

 

[Turpentine21]

Yes and no. A 1/2 moa rifle is a 1/2 moa rifle regardless of what you spent on it. I've seen $400 ruger Americans reliably shoot 1/2 moa and $2,000 Christensens struggle to stay under 1 moa. Nearly every rifle made these days is sub moa, even the cheap ****. There's a higher chance for the more expensive rigs to be more accurate, and they come with more amenities, but overall a good shooter is a good shooter regardless of the money spent on it. Money spent on a good scope will be far more of a game changer than the rifle.

I know this one has been a while back. I agree. There are a lot of rifles today straight from the factory that are capable of 1 moa and in many cases much better. My problem with many of those rifles boils down to plain old shootability. The stocks are terrible. Cheekweld for the setup can be even worse. Triggers are hit and miss. Scope mounts, parallax. Grip and reach to the trigger. I shoot all the time and can usually adapt to these things when zeroing someone else's gun but there are some of them that I find very difficult to shoot accurately. And the problem there is I'm zeroing the rifle for someone that may only shoot 3 bullets a year and isn't even proficient enough to verify zero after I have set it. Ergonomics and fit plays a large factor.

 

[marksman1941]

I know this one has been a while back. I agree. There are a lot of rifles today straight from the factory that are capable of 1 moa and in many cases much better. My problem with many of those rifles boils down to plain old shootability. The stocks are terrible. Cheekweld for the setup can be even worse. Triggers are hit and miss. Scope mounts, parallax. Grip and reach to the trigger. I shoot all the time and can usually adapt to these things when zeroing someone else's gun but there are some of them that I find very difficult to shoot accurately. And the problem there is I'm zeroing the rifle for someone that may only shoot 3 bullets a year and isn't even proficient enough to verify zero after I have set it. Ergonomics and fit plays a large factor.

I can't argue with a word of that. I guess when we talk accuracy, there's a few different ways to measure it.

I have always (internally) defined "accuracy" as the inherent ability of the rifle with proper ammunition to shoot repeatable, small groups. Realistically that means looking at the barreled action primarily (unless the stock causes mechanical problems) as most items outside of the barreled action will be user preference. Basically, if you clamp the barreled action into a random rest type setup, how well is it capable of shooting?

Shootability is the other term that I internally use, which encompasses trigger, stock shape and features, optics, etc. These features all make a gun potentially easier to shoot accurately, but they generally do not contribute to the inherent accuracy of a rifle. A good shooter can use a bad trigger and still shoot a good group, whereas a barrel only capable of 4moa will never be better, no matter what shootability features you add to the rifle.

If talking turnkey, out of the box, don't need to screw with anything to have a rifle that's easily shootable by a new or inexperienced shooter, I believe that's a different thing than looking for a 1/2moa rifle that you can customize to your liking.

It's been long enough that I don't remember all the details of the initial conversation lol. But from what I recall, I think the point I was trying to make is that a 1/2 moa ruger American dropped in your Boyd's stock of choice with a Bic trigger job and $2k in glass will shoot just as accurately, with a quality shooter, than a $6k GA precision build with a TT diamond and a carbon barrel. The high end rig may have features that make it easier for the layman to shoot it well, but end of the day there's not a need to spend huge money on the top tier stuff (unless a person wants to) when reasonably low end shoots **** good, and comfortably with some minor upgrades.

 

[ChrisInKY]

I took an NRA train the trainer class for basic pistol several years back. <snip>
But, they finally passed and therefore became fully fledged nra instructors. Blew me away how low that bar was and how hard it still was for most folks there.

While those classes _will_ certify an instructor, they're really more for on-boarding the public with the NRA. Anyone who really plans to teach has to up their game from that basic introduction. And if you're going to be the guy who demonstrates the shooting standard ... you had better be able to make a ragged hole in that paper plate @ 15yds.

 

[Turpentine21]

I can't argue with a word of that. I guess when we talk accuracy, there's a few different ways to measure it.

I have always (internally) defined "accuracy" as the inherent ability of the rifle with proper ammunition to shoot repeatable, small groups. Realistically that means looking at the barreled action primarily (unless the stock causes mechanical problems) as most items outside of the barreled action will be user preference. Basically, if you clamp the barreled action into a random rest type setup, how well is it capable of shooting?

Shootability is the other term that I internally use, which encompasses trigger, stock shape and features, optics, etc. These features all make a gun potentially easier to shoot accurately, but they generally do not contribute to the inherent accuracy of a rifle. A good shooter can use a bad trigger and still shoot a good group, whereas a barrel only capable of 4moa will never be better, no matter what shootability features you add to the rifle.

If talking turnkey, out of the box, don't need to screw with anything to have a rifle that's easily shootable by a new or inexperienced shooter, I believe that's a different thing than looking for a 1/2moa rifle that you can customize to your liking.

It's been long enough that I don't remember all the details of the initial conversation lol. But from what I recall, I think the point I was trying to make is that a 1/2 moa ruger American dropped in your Boyd's stock of choice with a Bic trigger job and $2k in glass will shoot just as accurately, with a quality shooter, than a $6k GA precision build with a TT diamond and a carbon barrel. The high end rig may have features that make it easier for the layman to shoot it well, but end of the day there's not a need to spend huge money on the top tier stuff (unless a person wants to) when reasonably low end shoots **** good, and comfortably with some minor upgrades.

Can't really disagree with any of that. I have several factory rifles with a few cheap modifications that really shoot well after I have put the necesary load work in. What I have found though is normally, if I spend the money for a better barrel, trigger, and ergonomics I spend way less time in load development and components.
Ultimately, it's what the rifle on its own is capable of ie. machine rest, no shooter input, etc.
Versus what that rifle is capable of in the shooters hands. And you are absolutely right. Some rifles just don't have the ergonomics or upgrades to make them as accurate as they can be in a shooters hands. I guess the terms would be more ergonomic and forgiving. I'm not going to spend $6000 in a rifle. I can build myself a nice, accurate custom rifle for under $2000. Minus glass of course. It may not meet every shooters goals but it'll meet or exceed mine.
I want factory rifles capable of 5/8 moa or better in my hands. Some of my rifles I've built myself, ARs and Bolts will do 3/8" or less for 5 at 100 and do so repeatedly. And do quite well at distance. For me it's about confidence in repeatable accuracy. When a rifle of mine goes over 3/4 moa I generally replace the barrel or make some changes. Unless it's my SKS, K2, AK or house AR or some very sentimental older rigs like the 03-A3 but they serve an entirely different need And I try to keep them original.

 

[Turpentine21]

Well we hunt elk in Silverton Colorado on the north east side of the mountain. We usually hunt them with a bow but if I had to use a rifle I think the further shout feet may be 74 yards we used 243 single shot they don't even move. It just dropped with 100 grain bullet, we get our limit every year. It's kinda cool when you wake up in the morning in your tent, they go away around you they come down from the mountain to migrate down during the winter time. My girls love it a lot they prefer using bows. I should be taking my grandson this season. He's five years old. He's all excited when I take the kids out it's all about the kids try to teach them the old way to do it. the right way and the courteous way happy hunting always

There was a period in my life that I used nothing but my homemade longbow or 1 of my two Black Widow recurves after handshock started giving my neck hardware a fit. Wood arrows, made my own fletching from Turkey feathers. And Zwickey broadheads. There was nothing in the world like it. Accidents and time prevent me from drawing a bow now but I really miss it. Hogs are Taylor Made for Bowhunting and I was truly addicted.

 

[Stonyman88]

Some times you can't fix stupid, had one guy I ask what his dope was, he said ,, Who's a dope, go figure.

Love that comment, partner says the same thing all the time and it's so true, but not the respond of Who's a dope, now I think I know who was the dope.