Best case trimmer??

[Mc Fraser]

My Sinclair/Wilson Ultimate SS Micro trimer says Your answer is wrong.. In both applications it would require your head space to be exact in a sample group of cases. "FLS or fireformed and shoulder bumped back, Collet and expanded." The only time I find an issue, is with brass from "some" auto's or semi auto rifles AR-15/AR-10 where the base has really taken a beating from multiple firings and reloads. They require a little lite file work to the base and every thing is back in check. I'm sorry if I'm coming off strong but I'm sure the guys using the Girard's are prepping their brass and sorting "Head Stamp" before they trim their brass. I could be wrong on that issue because I don't own one. I will say it like this. As long as my brass is prepped the same, and bases are in spec, and I don't screw up. Every case comes out the same. I measure every one of them so, I know their the same. I ASSUME nothing.
In either case, shoulder or base, the trim is only going to be as good as the prep work put in to it. My little trimmer may not be any where near as fast as the stated. But it's dead up accurate and repeatable 99.9% of the time provided I did not make a mistake some where in the brass prepping.
** The case length from base to shoulder will vary from case to case.** That's true in every case. As long as the Base, Case Body, Shoulder Head Space are Set to The Same Specs, case to case. Why should I care about any thing else. I'm Trimming on the BUSINESS end of the case, as long as that case comes out 1.911 on every case. I'm happy.
JM2C and Opinions do vary on this subject. I say, what works best for you is always the best method at hand. The test will take place down range on the target.

Interesting! Just so we are on the same page, I'm not implying anything, we are discussing trimming operations, in theory.
I'm attaching a picture so we can compare apples to apples. My goal is to have a consistent case length, not only from head to case mouth but also consistent neck, shoulder and body length. In my opinion, a FL die in theory will take care of the head to shoulder length, while a trimmer that indexes on the shoulder will take care of the neck length. With these two operations, in theory, and ignoring other external factors, the reloader will have consistent case dimensions - head to shoulder and neck length. With that in mind, a trimmer that indexes on the shoulder will yield consistent neck lengths.
Now, a trimmer that indexes on the head could potentially induce neck length errors if the FL die does not size consistently. Let's assume for a second that the FL die tolerance is +- 1 thou, then it does not matter how "perfect" or "my trimmer does a great job" your trimmer is, that inconsistency will be carried over. We all know that any tool will have a tolerance therefore your neck length at the time of trimming can be very inconsistent. How much it depends on the added tolerance from each operation.
Does it matter in real life? To me yes, for other nope.
I want consistent neck length on all my cases, and as far as I know, the only way to do it is with a trimmer that indexes on the shoulder.
I can't comment on the Wilson trimmer, I cant tell from the pictures if the case holder serves just as a centralized or it is machined to stop the case on the shoulder.

Does that make sense?

 

[IHFarmer07]

I like my forester trimmers. I have and rarely use my Frankford Arsenal platinum trimmer/brass prep machine. The FA is so loud and it indexes off of the shoulder and to me that is NOT a consistent place to trim OAL of a cartridge!! As I seen one guy say and there maybe others but I haven read through all comments yet, the forester has SO many attachments and uses and it's simple, I set one up for each caliber I reload for for precision. The only downside is you have to watch how much tension you put on the collet on the cartridge, you can tighten it too much and you will trim a bit more that you want.

I can trim faster, more precise and quieter than the Frankford using the 3 in 1 trimmer/chamfer/debur, and the chamfer/debur are the exact same on each shell. The Frankford you control it and let's be honest, sometimes you get distracted/daydream or just chamfer/debur too much.

My tension adjuster on the rim of the shell.

 

[Patriot007]

:0

 

[Patriot007]

I want pics of bolt locking lugs pulled off.....can I do that by hand? I must not work out enough!


Got any data on that? Pressures do go up pinching the bullet, but I thought BR guys basically proved it has no impact as long as there is some neck and it is not so long as to pinch in the throat that likely wouldn't chamber. Not to mention, I think it is normal for chamber necks to be over cut 0.010"-0.020" too long.

Over the decades at the range. I have seen some real twisted, shattered barrels and actions. Some used reloaded ammo, some Factory Loads. AS to what caused their miss hap, I will never know. I just know that the people sitting beside that shooter and behind the shooter paid the price.
I do know that some where out there on SensorTube there is a video showing what you asked for, but it has been years since I have seen it..
As far as BR goes, and their shooting and prepping disciplines. It depends on the shooter,, and as you stated::::
The way that their chamber is cut. Trying to figure out what going on in a Professional Bench Rest Shooters head,,,
Well Good Luck with that. LOL But I assure you, they PREP their Brass and that includes TRIMMING.
Take my word for this much of the conversation. An extra long case neck, with the max load will send the pressure,
"NOT VELOSITY" above what your barrel and bolt can hold together, and if your Jamming also,,, well I hope you never find out.
Good luck to you sir, I don't feel like I answered your question.to my fullest but just remember to Trim your brass.
There no need in destroying your expensive toy or sending someone to the hospital because you did not think trimming your brass was a big deal. "Worst case scenario" Merry Christmas, Sir. Nice Deer by the way.

 

[sheephearder]

I want pics of bolt locking lugs pulled off.....can I do that by hand? I must not work out enough!


Got any data on that? Pressures do go up pinching the bullet, but I thought BR guys basically proved it has no impact as long as there is some neck and it is not so long as to pinch in the throat that likely wouldn't chamber. Not to mention, I think it is normal for chamber necks to be over cut 0.010"-0.020" too long.

That happened to my mini-14 in the late 70's, I sent it to Ruger and they machined a new bolt, test fired it and sent it back to me with no charge. I might have made a mistake prepping the case or overloaded it or maybe a manufacturing defect. I dissembled the rest of the lot I had reloaded and found nothing wrong. 26,8 gr H335 under a 52gr Sierra hpbt in a military brass case sized with a RCBS small base die. I had shot that load many times as that's the only load I have used and still use in it.

 

[Patriot007]

Interesting! Just so we are on the same page, I'm not implying anything, we are discussing trimming operations, in theory.
I'm attaching a picture so we can compare apples to apples. My goal is to have a consistent case length, not only from head to case mouth but also consistent neck, shoulder and body length. In my opinion, a FL die in theory will take care of the head to shoulder length, while a trimmer that indexes on the shoulder will take care of the neck length. With these two operations, in theory, and ignoring other external factors, the reloader will have consistent case dimensions - head to shoulder and neck length. With that in mind, a trimmer that indexes on the shoulder will yield consistent neck lengths.
Now, a trimmer that indexes on the head could potentially induce neck length errors if the FL die does not size consistently. Let's assume for a second that the FL die tolerance is +- 1 thou, then it does not matter how "perfect" or "my trimmer does a great job" your trimmer is, that inconsistency will be carried over. We all know that any tool will have a tolerance therefore your neck length at the time of trimming can be very inconsistent. How much it depends on the added tolerance from each operation.
Does it matter in real life? To me yes, for other nope.
I want consistent neck length on all my cases, and as far as I know, the only way to do it is with a trimmer that indexes on the shoulder.
I can't comment on the Wilson trimmer, I cant tell from the pictures if the case holder serves just as a centralized or it is machined to stop the case on the shoulder.

Does that make sense?

I admire the method of your madness. I'm OCD and I fully understand where your coming from. But I fully think,, you are over thinking it. I bet, after you take that piece of brass out that trimmer. You measure your, over all case length from the bottom of the case. All I see here is apples and oranges. Keep in mind also the Sinclair/Wilson trimmers are in fact a small mini lathe with a precise micro meter adjustment and Carbide cutter. As for the trimmers that work off of the shoulder. I do not own and use one,
And I don't want to assume their junk.
But from what I see just looking at videos and how they work off the shoulder. I see room for a lot more inaccuracies than I see on my style trimmer. Like I said, I admire your madness. Sometimes things look good on paper and sound good..
But matter very little,

 

[Mrvmax]

I've used the RCBS, Lee, Redding and WFT. I have a Wilson on the way so I'll let you know how it turned out. BTW, the RCBS and WFT (6.5 CM and 308) will be going up for sale after Christmas if anyone is interested.

 

[Patriot007]

I like my forester trimmers. I have and rarely use my Frankford Arsenal platinum trimmer/brass prep machine. The FA is so loud and it indexes off of the shoulder and to me that is NOT a consistent place to trim OAL of a cartridge!! As I seen one guy say and there maybe others but I haven read through all comments yet, the forester has SO many attachments and uses and it's simple, I set one up for each caliber I reload for for precision. The only downside is you have to watch how much tension you put on the collet on the cartridge, you can tighten it too much and you will trim a bit more that you want.

I can trim faster, more precise and quieter than the Frankford using the 3 in 1 trimmer/chamfer/debur, and the chamfer/debur are the exact same on each shell. The Frankford you control it and let's be honest, sometimes you get distracted/daydream or just chamfer/debur too much.

My tension adjuster on the rim of the shell.
View attachment 234910

My buddy, Had the same problem with his Forester Trimmer. I also had a similar problem with the Hornady Trimmer.
I see you simplified the the issue. Great job Sir.

 

[Blackhawk]

My Sinclair/Wilson Ultimate SS Micro trimer says Your answer is wrong.. In both applications it would require your head space to be exact in a sample group of cases. "FLS or fireformed and shoulder bumped back, Collet and expanded." The only time I find an issue, is with brass from "some" auto's or semi auto rifles AR-15/AR-10 where the base has really taken a beating from multiple firings and reloads. They require a little lite file work to the base and every thing is back in check. I'm sorry if I'm coming off strong but I'm sure the guys using the Girard's are prepping their brass and sorting "Head Stamp" before they trim their brass. I could be wrong on that issue because I don't own one. I will say it like this. As long as my brass is prepped the same, and bases are in spec, and I don't screw up. Every case comes out the same. I measure every one of them so, I know their the same. I ASSUME nothing.
In either case, shoulder or base, the trim is only going to be as good as the prep work put in to it. My little trimmer may not be any where near as fast as the stated. But it's dead up accurate and repeatable 99.9% of the time provided I did not make a mistake some where in the brass prepping.
** The case length from base to shoulder will vary from case to case.** That's true in every case. As long as the Base, Case Body, Shoulder Head Space are Set to The Same Specs, case to case. Why should I care about any thing else. I'm Trimming on the BUSINESS end of the case, as long as that case comes out 1.911 on every case. I'm happy.
JM2C and Opinions do vary on this subject. I say, what works best for you is always the best method at hand. The test will take place down range on the target.

I have found that after full length resizing and bumping the shoulder back using a caliber specific Redding Body Die in conjunction with the correct Redding Competition Shell holder set that I am able to keep my trimmed brass using the Lyman Case Trim Express tool to generally within + or - .0005" about 98% of the time.
This tool itself s I have founcf is the fastest as well as easiest way to trim my brass shell cases.
Yes there are other tools available to accomplish the same tasks, however this Lyman motorized case trimmer has worked the best for myself.
I agree that brass has a mind of its own and will spring back accordingly due to many variables such as manufacture and construction even from lot to lot variances especially so from brand to brand.
Other causes include how many times it has been fired and annealed, full length resized and shoulder bumped back, as well as other variables not mentioned.

Yes you are entirely correct in your post that brass shell cases trimmed by locating off the shoulder is not a 100% accurate process ,however I have found that by using this brass case trimmer tool that it has proven at least to me that a trimmer that locates of the shell cases shoulder can be prove to be very reliable and for the most part as mentioned above accurate.
In any brass trimming operation using any case trimmer you are bound to have some deviation from the norm.
It's just the nature of the beast ! To that end all you can do is sort by brand culling out any that deviate from the preset trim length and instead use them as fouling rounds only in your rifle.
Please do not take this as a negative statement, I am just expressing my opinion's based on my observations and previous knowledge . With that said I am always open to other peoples thoughts, as I do not claim to be a no it all.
I am far from that, and I my learning curve has been expanded simply by being a subscriber to this web site, and absorbing the solid information that is found here from the other quotes that shooters like yourself so freely offer up.
To that end I add my own input nothing more!

 

[Patriot007]

Agreed 100%, like you, you got to do, what you got to do with some of these tools.
The main thing is,,, you got it working to suit your needs and level of priesion. Good job Sir. I certainly don't know it all. That's why I'm here, to learn and share info. I use the Redding body die, Forester Bushing bump die/minus the bushing & expander ball, Lee collect die to collect down the neck, & 21Century expander mandrels to set the neck tension. Works every time for me with less than .0005 bullet run out. That combination works well on 223/6.5Cm/308 For me. Also, thank you for your input on this matter, much appreciated.

 

[Blackhawk]

Agreed 100%, like you, you got to do, what you got to do with some of these tools.
The main thing is,,, you got it working to suit your needs and level of priesion. Good job Sir. I certainly don't know it all. That's why I'm here, to learn and share info. I use the Redding body die, Forester Bushing bump die/minus the bushing & expander ball, Lee collect die to collect down the neck, & 21Century expander mandrels to set the neck tension. Works every time for me with less than .0005 bullet run out. That combination works well on 223/6.5Cm/308 For me. Also, thank you for your input on this matter, much appreciated.

.0005" runout is truly wonderful indeed!

I am curious as to how you are measuring your bullets T.I.R. ( total indicated runout ).
I myself use the Horandy concentricity tool and have replaced the .001" indicator with a .0005" indicator and consider assembled rounds with less than + or -.0005" good enough.
True enough I must adjust runout as indicated from + - .0025" using a match grade bullet seating die to an average of + or - .0005"as indicated.
This is not alawys the case but I do spin up each assembled round and check the bullets concentricity adjusting those that are in need and passing those that are .0005" or less.
My procedure by making adjustments to the bullet itself as needed will yield a combined TIR total of .0005" to .001".
and no more than that.
Considering factory ammunition will allow a runout of .003" I consider my runout to be acceptable.
OBTW I am a retried tool and die maker and have a lot of machine tools on hand that will come into play by using them for reloading.
You know how it is, you need this or that in order to make it easier to perform your job and before you know it you have acquired 3 tool boxes that are full as well as a roll away that is also full of specialized tooling and jigs that you have made.
But I digress.
I look forward to see how you are checking your bullets TIR.

 

[Rardoin]

Yes you are entirely correct in your post that brass shell cases trimmed by locating off the shoulder is not a 100% accurate process ,however I have found that by using this brass case trimmer tool that it has proven at least to me that a trimmer that locates of the shell cases shoulder can be prove to be very reliable and for the most part as mentioned above accurate.
In any brass trimming operation using any case trimmer you are bound to have some deviation from the norm.
It's just the nature of the beast !

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ my sentiments also^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have used many trimmers over 25+ years. All, save one, have indexed off the case head. The most precise, by a very small and insignificant margin, has been the Wilson trimmer. My currently used trimmer has been the Giraud and has been so for over 4 years. Most of my shooting these days is long range score shooting and only the smallest shooting rifles will win consistently. My loads with the Wilson were no more precise than the loads using cases trimmed with the shoulder indexing Giraud. Most of the competitors I shoot with that win on a regular basis (regional, state, national events) also use a Giraud. I would say with certainty that if I trimmed 10 cases with each trimmer the Wilson trimmed cases would have less variation but it cannot be seen on target. My benchrest buddies find the same. The take away is use the system that suits your budget and speed requirements; most any system will give the precision required for properly trimmed necks.

 

[BigDon]

.0005" runout is truly wonderful indeed!

I am curious as to how you are measuring your bullets T.I.R. ( total indicated runout ).
I myself use the Horandy concentricity tool and have replaced the .001" indicator with a .0005" indicator and consider assembled rounds with less than + or -.0005" good enough.
True enough I must adjust runout as indicated from + - .0025" using a match grade bullet seating die to an average of + or - .0005"as indicated.
This is not alawys the case but I do spin up each assembled round and check the bullets concentricity adjusting those that are in need and passing those that are .0005" or less.
My procedure by making adjustments to the bullet itself as needed will yield a combined TIR total of .0005" to .001".
and no more than that.
Considering factory ammunition will allow a runout of .003" I consider my runout to be acceptable.
OBTW I am a retried tool and die maker and have a lot of machine tools on hand that will come into play by using them for reloading.
You know how it is, you need this or that in order to make it easier to perform your job and before you know it you have acquired 3 tool boxes that are full as well as a roll away that is also full of specialized tooling and jigs that you have made.
But I digress.
I look forward to see how you are checking your bullets TIR.

What is your process to adjust runout when needed?

 

[Patriot007]

.0005" runout is truly wonderful indeed!

I am curious as to how you are measuring your bullets T.I.R. ( total indicated runout ).
I myself use the Horandy concentricity tool and have replaced the .001" indicator with a .0005" indicator and consider assembled rounds with less than + or -.0005" good enough.
True enough I must adjust runout as indicated from + - .0025" using a match grade bullet seating die to an average of + or - .0005"as indicated.
This is not alawys the case but I do spin up each assembled round and check the bullets concentricity adjusting those that are in need and passing those that are .0005" or less.
My procedure by making adjustments to the bullet itself as needed will yield a combined TIR total of .0005" to .001".
and no more than that.
Considering factory ammunition will allow a runout of .003" I consider my runout to be acceptable.
OBTW I am a retried tool and die maker and have a lot of machine tools on hand that will come into play by using them for reloading.
You know how it is, you need this or that in order to make it easier to perform your job and before you know it you have acquired 3 tool boxes that are full as well as a roll away that is also full of specialized tooling and jigs that you have made.
But I digress.
I look forward to see how you are checking your bullets TIR.

Ok, You know, I'm about to show you just how OCD I really am when it comes to my measuring sticks. When you talk .0005" or .0001"you have to have accurate tools in order to achieve that level of precision. Your a Tool Maker, You know what I'm Talking about. I us the Neco Case Gauge it is the most versatile instrument available for measuring the various accuracy determining factors of cartridge cases, bullets and loaded ammunition. It measures, 1.Banana curvature of case. 2.Wall and neck thickness variations. 3.Case head squareness. 4.Banana curvature and out-of-round shape of individual bullets. 5.Runout of seated bullet. 6.Total runout of loaded cartridge. It has a GEM 222AA Jeweled .0005" Auto Dial Gauge. Very Accurate, It's so sensitive, It will measure heavy Oxidization on the case. This requires each case to be cleaned with .0000 steel wool while being spun in my drill. Very effective in cleaning my lapua brass. They never see Steel pins or a vibratory cleaner. I do this rite after they get Annealed. The gauge will read any residue or char char left on the case. If people would do this before they check the run out, or shall I say before they prep their brass it would take a couple hundred thousandths off their run out. Provided that they had a gauge that would read it. As far as correcting over all bullet run out. I have another tool that is made by the same company. It's called The CAT,, Cartridge Alignment Tool, by NECO. This tool will correct any run out, but I believe it affects the bullet seating tension. So I don't use it. My case prep, choice of dies and my OCD method of case prep contribute to my success in my final over all cartridge run out. "Some times I do screw it up, so don't think I'm perfect and CRAP don't happen at a moments notice. I am HUMAN." The other tool that I'm going to talk about as far as precision goes is the Mitutoyo 0-1" - .0001" Mic. I bought this from K&M and it has a modified 60* spindle. This is the mic of mic's for measuring case neck wall thickness. I own 5 other mics and none of them are as accurate as this one. Plus that 60* modified spindle allows you to measure the entire case neck all the way up to where the case neck meets the shoulder. Depending on the case, and the size of the spindle on your mic, you will not get an accurate reading the closer you get to the case neck and shoulder junction. Most people do not know, that, at that junction point, the brass is thicker, " I'm not talking about Donuts". This tool will measure it. Although, I turn my case necks with the K&M system, I'd trade it in a minute for the IDOD. I see one of them in my future, when the price comes down some, don't tell the wife.
Well, Sir, Here's some pics of what I'm talking about, I hope it helps, when you see me typing them big numbers, LOL. I'm look forward to reading your post, I believe you have a lot to say that I can learn from.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.