Any Tips for a New Loadbase User?

[bigngreen]

Sorry Broz, I'm probably adding to your confusion with not explaining things well.

If you have field conditions checked you are getting a correction based on the difference between you top boxes, which is site in and the lower boxes which is field data that differs from the site in data. Make changes to your site in data till it is right then start using the field conditions. You do not save the info from the field conditions to a track if it is checked you save the data that is in the top four boxes.

Baro need an elevation, so if you use a Baro of 29.92 and an elevation of 4200 you get the same come up as using Station of 25.63.
Loadbase blocks out elevation when using Station pressure, which is nice.

Using Station pressure of 25.63 in the site in data and a MV of 2750 fps gives 20.3 MOA and using Baro of 29.92 and 4200 feet elevation gives a come up of 20.3 MOA also. I use DA when all I know is the elevation.

Three ways to skin the same cat!

Eaglet helped me by using screen shots of his data and that really helped me, I'll try to get some for you when I get home at noon.
Hopefully he'll see me getting you screwed up and help

 

[Broz]

Question , I am playing here trying to learn. on the Data, Env, page. On top the sightin data. If I check baro box and then place a 0 in the alttitude box and also place a 0 in the Altitude box with "field cond" checked it gives me 20.1 moa and that is very close.

Is this the proper method using the Baro instaed of using Altitude? I had both in there and that is where it gives me the incorrect 19.1 moa.

Jeff

 

[bigngreen]

No that isn't really right. You have an uncorrected Baro pressure of 25.63, which is Station pressure, you want you top box to be unchecked and say Station in blue.

If you used a corrected Baro it would be around 29.92 like you see on a weather channel and you would need to have an elevation of 4200 with that to get the right data, and you would then check the box and it would say Barometric in blue.

You don't use your field tab at this point, don't check it till you have the site in date set and accurate, it will give you a come up based on your site in data alone and if you settle on 2750 MV and save that to track your data on the top four boxes on the Enviro page will be saved. The next time you shoot you bring up that track and in the enviro page you then select field and input your current field enviro data and it will give you the correct come up for that day based on the difference of saved data that you use for site in and current field conditions.

If you dial 20.5 and were a little high I would say a MV of 2750 and your enviro data with a come up of 20.3 would be right on.

 

[bigngreen]

This is a screen shot of LB desktop using your sight in data.

And this is for if you wanted to shoot today how you would input the data for today. I took the data from the Helena airport. It moves you come up from 20.3 MOA to 20.7 MOA. Notice the Field conditions is on.

It's a little different than the Mobile version but you should be able to get it, I can't get screen shots of the mobil like Eaglet, haven't figured it out yet.
Hope this helps out.

 

[Broz]

Thanks Bigngreen. I do appreciate your time spent here. It looks like my problem was , I need to use "Station" instead of "Barometric" when using the baro from my kestrel. It is much closer now. I will fine tune it and see if it matches up with the reading I get when my new chrono gets here this week.

Thank You!

Jeff

 

[Pdvdh]

Question , I am playing here trying to learn. on the Data, Env, page. On top the sightin data. If I check baro box and then place a 0 in the alttitude box and also place a 0 in the Altitude box with "field cond" checked it gives me 20.1 moa and that is very close.

Is this the proper method using the Baro instaed of using Altitude? I had both in there and that is where it gives me the incorrect 19.1 moa.

Jeff

Broz,

The upper "sight in" conditions must always be ICAO Standard Conditions for Berger bullets, because their BCs are referenced to ICAO conditions, which are:
29.92 in/Hg
59F
0% RH

A bullet's BC rating only has any meaning to us if we know the associated atmosphere density (environmental conditions) that the bullet's BC is referenced to. Look in the LoadBase 3.0 Desktop edition User's Manual. Mine is Code version 3.0.0.3, on page 41. There is a section titled Ballistic Coefficient reference. It is in the portion of the User's Manual titled 7 - Modules -> Ballistics; the third page in under Ballistic Coefficient reference. There will be found a table identifying the various bullet manufacturer's BC reference for their published BCs. Berger, Nosler, Lapua, and GI APG use ICAO Standard Conditions as their reference environmental conditions. On the other hand Barnes, Hornady, and Sierra use "Standard Metro" environmental conditions as the reference for their advertised BCs.

So your Environment Conditions - Sight In values need to be changed to ICAO Standard Conditions for the Berger 300 grain Hybrid G7 BC. If you enter any other Environment Sight In conditions other than ICAO Standard Conditions for the Berger B7 BC, then you will have entered error into the LoadBase 'engine', because the BC you entered will have been incorrect - to the extent that the values entered for environmental conditions is different from ICAO standard 92.92 in/Hg, 59F, and 0%RH. LoadBase software assumes that the BC value is referenced to the ICAO Standard Atmosphere, so ICAO Standard Atmosphere environmental conditions should automatically appear as the default in the first Environment Conditions Sight In box for environmental conditions.

If you're using a Kestrel to obtain atmospheric conditions and you're obtaining Station Pressure, then do not click Barometric Pressure on. Just run with Station Pressure.

Another reason it's important to enter ICAO Standard Conditions reference Environmental Sight In conditions properly is if you use the Spin Drift feature in LoadBase; the Stability Factor (SG) calculated within the Analyzer Module is also referenced to ICAO standard conditions, when the 'Standard Conditions is On' box is checked in the Analyzer Module.

So what to do if your actual environmental conditions are not ICAO Standard Conditions at the time you zero (sight in) your rifle? Enter your actual field environmental conditions at the time you zero in your rifle in the Environment Conditions - Field window. After doing so - and this can be confusing for the uninitiated - the Ballistics Module Data Tab value entered under Scope's Setting (Desktop LB3) for Zero Height will be representing the Zero Height at your Zero Range for ICAO Standard Atmosphere (Environment Conditions Sight In) conditions - not the Zero Height for your actual environmental conditions at the time and location you zero your rifle. The Zero Height value calculated by LB3 for your actual field environmental conditions (Environment Conditions Field) will be the value reported under the Results tab, provided the Field Conditions is ON box is checked. So if your zero range is 300 yds and your bullets are dead on at 300 yds, then the Path value under the Results tab at 300 yds should be 000.0" In order to obtain the 000.0" value under the Results tab, you will need to enter a different value under Scope's Setting (Desktop LB3) for Zero Height at your Zero Range if the field environment conditions during sight in are substantially different than ICAO Standard Conditions. In an atmosphere less dense than an ICAO atmosphere the Zero Range value entered under Scope's Setting will lower (lesser value) than the Path value calculated by LB3, because the values are for different environmental conditions. Play with these features and you will observe what I am trying to explain. Enter environmental conditions of 25.92 in/Hg for an Environment Conditions - Field value and turn on the Field Condition is ON box; and then observe how the Zero Range value under Scope's Setting varies from the calculated Path at your Zero Range. The difference in values is due to the difference in Environmental Conditions values between ICAO values and your actual field environmental values.

LoadBase 3.0 will be dead nutz on if you enter proper values. The Coriolis affect at my Alaska Latitude of 60-61 degrees is substantial at 1000 yds. Especially when added on top of the required Spin Drift dope.

Hope this helped. Perhaps I can clarify by answering a few specific questions. I began using LB improperly by mis-matching BC input values with incorrect Environment Conditions - Sight In input values. I am now confident I am using LB3 properly.

 

[Pdvdh]

This is a screen shot of LB desktop using your sight in data.

And this is for if you wanted to shoot today how you would input the data for today. I took the data from the Helena airport. It moves you come up from 20.3 MOA to 20.7 MOA. Notice the Field conditions is on.

It's a little different than the Mobile version but you should be able to get it, I can't get screen shots of the mobil like Eaglet, haven't figured it out yet.
Hope this helps out.

bigngreen,
Not trying to be a fussbucket, but I believe you are entering incorrect Environmental Conditions - Sight In values in associated with Berger's G7 BC value. I started out using LB3 this same way - incorrectly. I finally got squared away following the assistance obtained directly from the programmer - Gus.

I'll continue to follow this Thread with interest to see if Eaglet or perhaps even Gus himself, feels the need to get me lined out.

 

[Pdvdh]

If I knew how to post images of the LB screens like bigngreen and Eaglet do, I would. But I'm not skilled in that regard.

 

[Broz]

Ok, let me start over,here are the facts.

I worked up the load and zeroed at 300 it was almost 1/2" high.
so here is what I put in sight in data.

bullet weight 300
MV=2740
g7 C =.455
DC=.500
click setting=.25
sight height=2.100
zero range=300
zero height 0.5
incline=0

Then I entered the dat from time of zero at ata Env top.
station = 29.92
temp=59
humidity=0
altitude=0

Then fo the 1000 yard group a little later that day.
station = 25.3
temp=67
hum=30
altitude=0

Correct??

Jeff

 

[Pdvdh]

Ok, let me start over, here are the facts.

I worked up the load and zeroed at 300 it was almost 1/2" high.
so here is what I put in sight in data.
bullet weight 300
MV=2740
g7 C =.455
DC=.500
click setting=.25
sight height=2.100
zero range=300
zero height 0.5
incline=0

Then I entered the environmental condition data from time of zero at the top.
Environment Conditions - Sight In values:
station = 29.92
temp=59
humidity=0
altitude=0
Jeff - these environmental conditions will always, without exception, be entered in the Environmental Conditions - Sight In window for use with a Berger-advertised BC, because the Berger BC values are referenced to these environment conditions (ICAO Standard Conditions).

Then for the 1000 yard group a little later that day.
station = 25.3
temp=67
hum=30
altitude=0

Correct??

Jeff

I would like to simply provide a yes or no answer, but I can't without further information.

What were the environmental conditions at the time you zeroed your rifle 1/2" high at 300 yards? Those are the environmental condition values that should have been entered for the "Environment Conditions - Field" values. And then with the Field Conditions is ON box checked, you would have to open the Results tab in the Ballistics Module to ensure that the calculated bullet Path was/is 1/2" high @ 300 yds. If won't be if the field environment conditions are substantially different than the ICAO Standard Conditions. In fact the calculated Path (point of impact) at 300 yards will only match your entered Zero Height value in the Data tab if your field environment conditions were exactly ICAO conditions of 92.92 in/Hg, 59F, and 0%RH. If your field conditions are different that the ICAO conditions (they undoubtedly were), then you go back to the Data tab and modify the Zero Height input value until the Results Path value is the 1/2" high @ 300 yards under the field environmental conditions you experienced at the time you zeroed your rifle 1/2" high @ 300 yards. Finally, when the calculated Path at 300 yards matches your 1/2" high zero at 300 yards, Save that Tract. Now that the Tract is saved, you retrieve it from the Ballistics Database and modify the 'Environment Conditions - Field' values to whatever the actual conditions are at any other future time and location.

For purposes of clarification: the 'Environment Conditions - Sight In' values are established by the bullet manufacturer for their advertised BC, IF you're going to use a manufacturer's advertised BC. The 'Environment Conditions - Sight In' values for a bullet are never changed from the reference values the BC of the bullet was determined for - no matter how your Environment Conditions - Field values may change at differing locations and times. The ONLY location to input the field environmental condition values is in the 'Environment Conditions - Field' boxes. So you did enter the correct 'Environment Conditions - Sight In' values in your above example for the Berger bullet: 92.92 in/Hg, 59F, and 0%RH.

Now, if you've developed and saved your sight in Tract in this manner - THEN - when you go out to shoot at 1000 yards under your stated environmental conditions of:
station = 25.3
temp=67
hum=30
altitude=0

You would recall that saved Tract, enter these field conditions in the 'Environment Conditions - Field' value boxes, then make sure the 'Field Conditions is ON' box is checked, open the Results tab, and the Path and Click values should provide the correct dope for 1000 yd hits under your specified field environment atmosphere conditions. To get even more refined data, utilize the Spin Drift feature and the Coriolis feature at 1000 yds.

Making any sense?

 

[bigngreen]

bigngreen,
Not trying to be a fussbucket, but I believe you are entering incorrect Environmental Conditions - Sight In values in associated with Berger's G7 BC value. I started out using LB3 this same way - incorrectly. I finally got squared away following the assistance obtained directly from the programmer - Gus.

I'll continue to follow this Thread with interest to see if Eaglet or perhaps even Gus himself, feels the need to get me lined out.

Fuss away man, the more I learn about the nuances of Loadbase the more accurate my corrections are.
I think I understand what your saying but I have never seen anyone use LB that way, I have often sent stuff to Eaglet to check and it at least appeared that we used it the same way in our screen shots.

If we never change the sight in enviro to anything other than ICAO standards why would it be an edited and saved function. In effect you have no saved sight in enviro data the way your saying to use it.

I can kinda see what your saying but can't quite get it. I'm away from my computer so I can't read the manual but I'll dig back into it when I get home.

Len sent me a link to this Mirek's Free Windows Software for making snapping pics of the desktop, I was on another computer that didn't have it for the pics earlier, you just snap a pic and save it then drop it to photobucket and proceed as you would with a regular pic. Eaglets pics helped me more than pages of trying to explain it.

 

[Pdvdh]

Fuss away man, the more I learn about the nuances of Loadbase the more accurate my corrections are.
I think I understand what your saying but I have never seen anyone use LB that way, I have often sent stuff to Eaglet to check and it at least appeared that we used it the same way in our screen shots.

If we never change the sight in enviro to anything other than ICAO standards why would it be an edited and saved function. In effect you have no saved sight in enviro data the way your saying to use it. The Environmental Conditions - Sight In values are the reference ICAO Standard Conditions values. Gus probably knows how to use other input values and still get accurate output - but he designed the program so he knows it inside out. The rest of us should just use the software as intended - using the ICAO values.

I can kinda see what your saying but can't quite get it. I'm away from my computer so I can't read the manual but I'll dig back into it when I get home.

Len sent me a link to this Mirek's Free Windows Software for making snapping pics of the desktop, I was on another computer that didn't have it for the pics earlier, you just snap a pic and save it then drop it to photobucket and proceed as you would with a regular pic. Eaglets pics helped me more than pages of trying to explain it.

Some reasons I can think of for allowing different Environment Conditions - Sight In values in LB3 is that different bullet manufacturers reference their advertised BC to different environmental conditions. Sierra uses slightly different environmental conditions as a reference for their published BCs than Berger or Nosler.

Changing the Environment Conditions - Sight In values to any value other than the reference values that were used to establish the BC of the bullet will cause input error which will be reflected in the program's output values.

LB3 allows us to calculate the ICAO referenced BC for bullet BCs that were established at non-ICAO reference values. So if I shoot over my chronographs to determine a velocity difference based BC - over say 1000 yds - and my velocity data is collected at under non-ICAO environmental conditions, LB3 will then allow me to convert my non-standardized BC into a BC value referenced to ICAO Standard Conditions. And the reason I would want to do that is because LB3 is programmed referencing the ICAO Standard Conditions. So as stated earlier, if I use the LB3 Spin Drift feature (I do) and I want LB3 to properly tweak my predicted dope based on a Stability Factor (SG value) determined using the Analyzer Module "Miller Method", that SG value is referenced to the ICAO Standard Condition environmental values. The Spin Drift corrected dope values will only be calculated properly if the BC value entered for my bullet is referenced to the ICAO Standard Condition values, AND my entered 'Environmental Condtions - Sight In' values are input as 92.92 in/Hg, 59F, and 0%RH.

This would be a prime opportunity for Gus to get us all lined out on this important aspect of the proper use of his software. I don't know how often he visits this Forum. I'm sure he'd be willing to post if one of us e-mailed him and solicited his instruction on this matter.

It's critical to match the 'Environmental Conditions - Sight In' input values to the reference environmental conditions that the bullet's BC is published for. Otherwise we essentially cluster the bullet's correct advertised BC, and end up with the garbage in - garbage out scenario.

Good attitude. All I'm interested in is that we all become most proficient in in the use of LB3, so we get all the software has to offer - which is a LOT. This software yields very accurate output if we enter the input correctly.

 

[bigngreen]

I'm kinda getting the reasoning. Hopefully Gus can weigh in!

I've very accurately predicted drops to over 2200 yrds this way including wind, spin drift and coriolis and been within a 1/10th of MOA for drop and deflection. Then in other conditions I used the Field tab to predict different enviro based of the saved enviro in a tract. And had them validated by other users so this is very interesting, I'll give it a go using what your saying this evening.

 

[Pdvdh]

You could get pretty close predicted dope if your 'Environmental Conditions - Sight In' entered values aren't very different from the values referenced for the bullets published BC (in the Berger case the ICAO Standard Condition values). But I would expect substantial errors with the predicted dope if there was a significant difference - such as entering 'Environmental Conditions - Sight In' values for a location at 5000 foot elevation. Because the value for the BC of the bullet will no longer be 'close' to correct for those greatly different atmospheric pressures and resultant atmospheric density. The longer the range the greater the error in the predicted dope.

What elevation are you located for purposes of sighting in your guns, and your use of LB3? This will give us an idea as to how different your 'Environmental Conditions - Sight In' input values have been from the IACO Standard Condition values.

Again, my belief is that the correct 'Environmental Conditions - Sight In' input values are established by the reference values used to establish the manufacturer's advertised BC. They are not determined with a Kestrel at the time and location where you have sighted in your rifle. Because the advertised BC for the bullet is only the correct BC for that bullet under the reference environmental conditions used to establish, and specify, the bullets BC. The BC of a bullet is different for every different set of reference environmental conditions. And you're essentially changing the reference conditions, but not changing and correcting the BC, for those differing environmental (reference) conditions when you input non-reference environmental conditions into the 'Environmental Conditions - Sight In' input value boxes in LB3.

Oh Gus? Where are you in this time of need?