This is what ive always heard, just trying to understand if others have found a way around this but i will continue to clean my brass before sizing.
Annealing prior thumbling?
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I don't check every case because I'm confident enough in my equipment I don't feel it's necessary. I did test it when I started annealing.
When I finished building my annealer I took 100 pieces of brass and split it into 2 groups of 50. I loaded and fired all of them until I lost 10 cases. If I remember correctly it was 8 or 9 firings. I loaded near max figuring that's a worst case scenario for case life. Some of the failures were primer pockets from both groups, but most were split necks from the unannealed group. I was using SRP 6.5 Creedmoor brass, which I've often heard lasts longer than LRP before primer pockets give out. I've never tested that claim myself. I used pin gauges to measure neck tension and base to shoulder length of every case after every sizing and firing. The annealed cases remained consistent from the first to last firing. The unannealed cases didn't, and showed an increase in variation from case to case after several firings.
I didn't see much change in precision between the two groups, to the point I'd calk most of it up to noise. I did see a meaningful change in velocity spread, with the annealed cases maintaining a lower ES and SD towards the end of the test.
I think if every case work hardened in exactly the same way with every firing and cases were always kept separate based on number of firings annealing would not show any increase in consistency within a batch, but would increase consistency between batches. My belief is the brass does not consistently harden with each firing, leading to increased variation within batches and in turn greater velocity spread. Unfortunately I don't have a hardness meter and didn't even think about it until after I finished my test. It would have been interesting to see how bullet seating force changed by using an AMP press too, but that's another expensive tool I don't have.
crkckr
Well-Known Member
Koda_, bare minimum is wiping down your cases before sizing. There is simply too much junk on your cases after firing and a lot of it is very hard debris! Even using new brass there is enough in way of tiny bits of brass that can get embedded into your die and cause scratching. If this does happen and you have good quality dies, the manufacturer will usually clean them up for you for free. RCBS is very good about this, as is Dillon.
beidnick, I have considered getting into annealing my rifle brass but as things stand now, I'm normally getting in excess of 10 reloadings on my cases now. I've gotten 18 reloadings on my buddies 300 RUM that everyone was saying to toss the brass after one or two reloads! And these were not wimp loads by any means, but loads working up to max. Once I get familiar with the way a rifle handles max loads, I tend to start up in the 90% range, always looking for those extra few feet of velocity while trying to maintain accuracy. Generally, primer pockets aren't a problem, when they a bit loose I just set the cases on a ball bearing and give 'em a couple or 5 whacks with an appropriate sized rod and the primer pockets are good for another 6+ reloadings before they start to loosen again. Sometimes I only have to do that once in the life of a case. But annealing is on my list of things to do, especially with a couple of custom rifles that only get Lapua brass, which is probably the best (and most expensive!) brass I've ever purchased! It's just not a high priority item at the moment. One of these days!
Cheers,
crkckr
beidnick, I have considered getting into annealing my rifle brass but as things stand now, I'm normally getting in excess of 10 reloadings on my cases now. I've gotten 18 reloadings on my buddies 300 RUM that everyone was saying to toss the brass after one or two reloads! And these were not wimp loads by any means, but loads working up to max. Once I get familiar with the way a rifle handles max loads, I tend to start up in the 90% range, always looking for those extra few feet of velocity while trying to maintain accuracy. Generally, primer pockets aren't a problem, when they a bit loose I just set the cases on a ball bearing and give 'em a couple or 5 whacks with an appropriate sized rod and the primer pockets are good for another 6+ reloadings before they start to loosen again. Sometimes I only have to do that once in the life of a case. But annealing is on my list of things to do, especially with a couple of custom rifles that only get Lapua brass, which is probably the best (and most expensive!) brass I've ever purchased! It's just not a high priority item at the moment. One of these days!
Cheers,
crkckr
Jeff Heeg osoh
Well-Known Member
So if I'm reading this all correctly
number 1 you reference in every statement that annealing wins over not annealing, and I agree big time - saves brass
I didn't see where you backed up with actual data or reference as to why you "have to do it" prior to sizing? Help me with this
So I anneal my brass after sizing why?
after sizing I can use all the scientific gadgets today to see that I am setting the shoulder back one thousands - thats my goal and yes the tools tell me this is consistent and yes they are all in that zone because I can physically check and it shows. (Remember my brass neck/shoulder is soft and thats what we want because its still being annealed every round)
You are concerned with work harding and I agree - running brass through a die is a step of work harding the brass that is not measurable? correct?
so yes my tools at hand can show me that I have a very consistent set back of one thou. - true availability of information now I anneal the brass, and in results it unbelievable how consistent the bullet seating pressure is - and! as I said for years when firing the round the release as the case builds pressure when fired is consistent giving the shooter very low extreme spreads on speed.
The brass is still annealed every use or cycle, just that in time I tweaked the system. I have done this for ever from my 260, 338LM and the 416 and its amazing the amount of rounds I have through my brass. We started annealing back in the day as you had to save brass from the necks cracking but we have took it to a different level due to being pushed with targets out to 4200 yards these days with the 416, consistency and brass life is or goal today. We get pushed hard these days with shooting so far and under the clock ticking away with a limit of 3 to 5 rounds per target and seriously all the little things make a big difference at the end.
You're on the right road but think about what I mentioned, I always want folks to exceed their expectations versus the gaming and secrets that many prefer to keep in the ELR game.
osoh
JH
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Case life is definitely the biggest advantage, and it doesn't matter when you anneal if that's all you're after.
From what I've seen annealing also increase consistency in sizing and velocity. It seems to be cumulative over several firings, so annealing at any point will improve consistency.
Brass work hardens both when it's sized and when it's fired. It's easily measurable if you have the right tool, I just don't have the tool so I couldn't measure when I did my testing.
For consistency, you want every piece of brass in the same state when it's sized. If it's not you'll get different amounts of springback. Annealing "resets" brass that has been work hardened by firing to a consistent state. Nothing that happens between sizings is reliant on the brass being in an identical state of hardness, so there's no reason to anneal after sizing.
Sizing should also be a more consistent process than firing, so it should work harder brass by a more consistent amount. I have no data to back this up and I don't believe it would be measurable.
Much of this is more theoretical than practical. Odds are as long as you're annealing every cycle you're not going to let your brass harden enough to see a measurable difference in any metric. There's no theoretical or practical reason to size before annealing, which is why AMP and other annealer manufacturers say annealing should always be done before sizing.
Annealing Brass For Reloading | FAQ | Annealing Made Perfect
Not sure about something or have a question? Check our FAQ. Throughout our extensive R&D we have asked and answered many questions critical to perfecting the annealing process.
www.ampannealing.com
scpaul
Well-Known Member
Some people said that they don't polish their brass everytime they reload it. I personally want it clean inside and out and if it looks like crap on the outside then people may look at it as if I don't care about what I put on the inside and I don't want to messup my dies. It's actually more for my satisfaction than anything else.
Bumping the shoulder is also sizing the brass, or do you mean before seating the bullet?
Jeff Heeg osoh
Well-Known Member
As you stated much is based on theories, I depend on consistent results with very low single digit ES and impact points at extreme distance.Case life is definitely the biggest advantage, and it doesn't matter when you anneal if that's all you're after.
From what I've seen annealing also increase consistency in sizing and velocity. It seems to be cumulative over several firings, so annealing at any point will improve consistency.
Brass work hardens both when it's sized and when it's fired. It's easily measurable if you have the right tool, I just don't have the tool so I couldn't measure when I did my testing.
For consistency, you want every piece of brass in the same state when it's sized. If it's not you'll get different amounts of springback. Annealing "resets" brass that has been work hardened by firing to a consistent state. Nothing that happens between sizings is reliant on the brass being in an identical state of hardness, so there's no reason to anneal after sizing.
Sizing should also be a more consistent process than firing, so it should work harder brass by a more consistent amount. I have no data to back this up and I don't believe it would be measurable.
Much of this is more theoretical than practical. Odds are as long as you're annealing every cycle you're not going to let your brass harden enough to see a measurable difference in any metric. There's no theoretical or practical reason to size before annealing, which is why AMP and other annealer manufacturers say annealing should always be done before sizing.
Annealing Brass For Reloading | FAQ | Annealing Made Perfect
Not sure about something or have a question? Check our FAQ. Throughout our extensive R&D we have asked and answered many questions critical to perfecting the annealing process.
At the end its all good practices, what works for you as well as others.
Cheers
scpaul
Well-Known Member
I've been annealing brass 2 different old ways. 1 I stand the cases in a pan with about 1 inch of water, heat them with a torch then knock them over into the water.
The 2nd way is to.put the brass into a slowly rotating socket then drop them into water.
At 1 time I was told that the water wasn't necessary. I still did it to stop the migration of heat toward the head.
The 2nd way is to.put the brass into a slowly rotating socket then drop them into water.
At 1 time I was told that the water wasn't necessary. I still did it to stop the migration of heat toward the head.
