Annealing

Coyote Shadow Tracker

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I can't remember the exact price , but if I remember I got didn't pay tax or shipping when I got mine form Mr. Alex Findlay, President AMP.
If you are serious send him and email and tell him I sent you.

[email protected]

Len Suchar
Coyote Shadow Tracker, LLC
 

Zstingray

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Apr 17, 2012
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Texas
I built my own flame annealer used it for a year, setup for consistent annealing was a timely process. Color of brass is NO indication of proper annealing. The condition I noticed that from one batch of brass to the other I had to reset the annealer. I also purchase once fired brass, then fire form to my chamber as fouling rounds. Once fire formed goes through brass prep process. Annealing occurs after de-prime and brass cleaning once annealed FL resize...etc. Then it is worked up into a batch of 50 cases. After a while of this I cried once and bought an AMP annealer the setup for annealing is very quick and enables me to produce a better consistence across the different batches of brass. The neck tension is a bit more consistent using a dial indicator setup on K&M arbor press. Measuring and tracking neck tension in this manner again is not the best way. However awaiting an AMP press to actually measure and track neck tension. One may think this is over doing it a bit in the reloading process. One question I ask myself is how much have I spent in setting up a hunt year after year either guided or unguided. Besides shooting PRC for skill building.
I am going to disagree with you on the color not being a good indication of correct annealing. This past weekend i asked three other shooters and they agree they anneal off color. They turn the lights off and watch they process. When the neck reaches a bright cherry they dump the case. If it reaches the orange stage it's overdone.
Two of three of these shooters hold national NRA records in long range competition. The also have records shot at national events. I my self have held three national records at 600 and one record at 1000 yards. I still hold the 600 yard record for Grand Senior and I currently share the record for 1000 yards. So we must be doing something right. I have a cheap home made annealer and feed the cases in lots of 30 at a time and then I dump each case individually in a dark garage where I prep my cases.
 

ButterBean

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West Terre Haute Indiana
I am going to disagree with you on the color not being a good indication of correct annealing. This past weekend i asked three other shooters and they agree they anneal off color. They turn the lights off and watch they process. When the neck reaches a bright cherry they dump the case. If it reaches the orange stage it's overdone.
Two of three of these shooters hold national NRA records in long range competition. The also have records shot at national events. I my self have held three national records at 600 and one record at 1000 yards. I still hold the 600 yard record for Grand Senior and I currently share the record for 1000 yards. So we must be doing something right. I have a cheap home made annealer and feed the cases in lots of 30 at a time and then I dump each case individually in a dark garage where I prep my cases.
That's backwards and I have never seen them turn red, the orange glow just keeps getting brighter
 

Coyote Shadow Tracker

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You can put ten different shooters in a room and each one will have a different way to anneal and think it is the best way.
1. Flame from a torch and looking at it in the dark and the brass turns ORANGE.
2. Flame from a torch and looking at it in the dark and the brass turns RED.
3. Flame from two torches and setting the tip of the inside cone to touch the brass.
4. Flame from one torch and setting the BROAD tip of the inside cone to touch the brass.
5. Then there is all the different times and speed rotation to let the neck of the brass in the FLAME.
6. Templaq at different temps to get the correct temp.
There is probably no less that 100 propane torch machines on the market for sale today for annealing and really quite inventive. Some of these propane annealing machines are no less than amazing.
I have to say that most of all the equipment that we are using today came from some shooter at home wanting to have a better system and made their own. Then companies that had the resources improved the products and we as shooters/reloaders have some excellent reloading equipment to use. All due to some shooter working in their basement/garage trying to make things better.

Then you have the SALT BATH annealer.
This process is another very ingenious way to heat brass to a certain temp to try and get the brass to anneal. Taking SALT 11/NA mineral from a solid state to a liquid state by melting is another way to get brass to a temp to try an anneal it.

Then there is LEAD.
Melting lead from a solid to liquid and putting brass in it to anneal. I have yet to see this process or have someone tell me hoe they do it or show me.

The last process that I know of is "INDUCTION"
There are several DYI Induction systems out there if you are mechanically inclined and want to save some money. Induction system can anneal the brass fast, but you have to know the electrical power of the induction equipment that you are using. How fast and what temp is the brass being heated up to.

ALL THESE PROCESS DEAL WITH HEAT - TIME - & METAL (Brass).
Anyone can heat up a brass case.
Anyone can heat up a brass case and put a time setting on it that they THINK anneals the brass metal properly.
The FACT is the not anyone can determine the composition of the metals in every BRASS CASE.
Every Brass Case made by different manufactures and different calibers have a different composition of metals and % of brass/copper/zinc/ect.
There is absolutely no way for someone or a manufacture to say that every BRASS case anneals at the same temp or time.
Every Brass manufacture has a different recipe for the metals the use in their brass. Every Brass Case manufacture has different wall thicknesses. Every lot of Brass will Anneal differently.
Every lot of Brass Cases will produce a different colorization, when annealing, on the case due to the composition of the metals in the brass and the oxidation on the case.

When I started annealing I did a lot of research and looked into propane, Salt and induction annealing. I for one always try to build my own after looking at a product and try to build "A Better Mouse Trap".
I did buy Propane annealers and then looked a Salt and was ready to then go to Induction. Several good DYI videos on Induction Anneales. I thought why spend over $1K for induction when I can make it. I didn't like the Propane-too inconsistent and constantly watching the flame. Was very concerned on the Salt Bath. Turning a solid mineral into a liquid from electrical heating rods had me concerned especially with the safety on SALT "NA". If it is over heated it can fire and even explode.
Then after much research and finding out the all brass is not the same I took a step back. One thing that I could not do even after building any or all annealing machines on the market was do a true TEST of the metal to see if I was truly annealing and doing it correctly.
I then stopped using the machines that I had and sold them.
The end of my story is that I found a company that did extensive research and development for quite a few years with test results to prove that their product does anneal brass cases per the composition of the brass. I have used this product and found that the accuracy of my loads are more consistent and have reload that are lasting up to 20 reloads. I also do not over pressure my loads and go for accuracy rather that velocity.

This THREAD/POST on ANNEALING will go on for a real long time with a lot of shooters standing by their way of annealing so there will never be "WIN ALL ANSWER" for Annealing. Look on LRH and the internet-there are thousands of posts on which way is the best. The only thing I can say is that if gives you the results that you want use that process. I can't say to anyone that your process that you use or the process that I use is better. If you have very good accuracy keep going on.
I use several different cartridges, different lots, different metal compositions and I use an Induction Machine with a Process that has built in electronics to determine the metal and what temp/time should be used for proper annealing.
Everyone has their own way of doing things and how does that saying go "Necessity is the Mother of Invention". Many of our reloading/shooting products came from people like here on LRH.

Thanks
Len & Jill
 
Last edited:

ButterBean

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LRH Team Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
5,175
Location
West Terre Haute Indiana
You can put ten different shooters in a room and each one will have a different way to anneal and think it is the best way.
1. Flame from a torch and looking at it in the dark and the brass turns ORANGE.
2. Flame from a torch and looking at it in the dark and the brass turns RED.
3. Flame from two torches and setting the tip of the inside cone to touch the brass.
4. Flame from one torch and setting the BROAD tip of the inside cone to touch the brass.
5. Then there is all the different times and speed rotation to let the neck of the brass in the FLAME.
6. Templaq at different temps to get the correct temp.
There is probably no less that 100 propane torch machines on the market for sale today for annealing and really quite inventive. Some of these propane annealing machines are no less than amazing.
I have to say that most of all the equipment that we are using today came from some shooter at home wanting to have a better system and made their own. Then companies that had the resources improved the products and we as shooters/reloaders have some excellent reloading equipment to use. All due to some shooter working in their basement/garage trying to make things better.

Then you have the SALT BATH annealer.
This process is another very ingenious way to heat brass to a certain temp to try and get the brass to anneal. Taking SALT 11/NA mineral from a solid state to a liquid state by melting is another way to get brass to a temp to try an anneal it.

Then there is LEAD.
Melting lead from a solid to liquid and putting brass in it to anneal. I have yet to see this process or have someone tell me hoe they do it or show me.

The last process that I know of is "INDUCTION"
There are several DYI Induction systems out there if you are mechanically inclined and want to save some money. Induction system can anneal the brass fast, but you have to know the electrical power of the induction equipment that you are using. How fast and what temp is the brass being heated up to.

ALL THESE PROCESS DEAL WITH HEAT - TIME - & METAL (Brass).
Anyone can heat up a brass case.
Anyone can heat up a brass case and put a time setting on it that they THINK anneals the brass metal properly.
The FACT is the not anyone can determine the composition of the metals in every BRASS CASE.
Every Brass Case made by different manufactures and different calibers have a different composition of metals and % of brass/copper/zinc/ect.
There is absolutely no way for someone or a manufacture to say that every BRASS case anneals at the same temp or time.
Every Brass manufacture has a different recipe for the metals the use in their brass. Every Brass Case manufacture has different wall thicknesses. Every lot of Brass will Anneal differently.
Every lot of Brass Cases will produce a different colorization, when annealing, on the case due to the composition of the metals in the brass and the oxidation on the case.

When I started annealing I did a lot of research and looked into propane, Salt and induction annealing. I for one always try to build my own after looking at a product and try to build "A Better Mouse Trap".
I did buy Propane annealers and then looked a Salt and was ready to then go to Induction. Several good DYI videos on Induction Anneales. I thought why spend over $1K for induction when I can make it. I didn't like the Propane-too inconsistent and constantly watching the flame. Was very concerned on the Salt Bath. Turning a solid mineral into a liquid from electrical heating rods had me concerned especially with the safety on SALT "NA". If it is over heated it can fire and even explode.
Then after much research and finding out the all brass is not the same I took a step back. One thing that I could not do even after building any or all annealing machines on the market was do a true TEST of the metal to see if I was truly annealing and doing it correctly.
I then stopped using the machines that I had and sold them.
The end of my story is that I found a company that did extensive research and development for quite a few years with test results to prove that their product does anneal brass cases per the composition of the brass. I have used this product and found that the accuracy of my loads are more consistent and have reload that are lasting up to 20 reloads. I also do not over pressure my loads and go for accuracy rather that velocity.

This THREAD/POST on ANNEALING will go on for a real long time with a lot of shooters standing by their way of annealing so there will never be "WIN ALL ANSWER" for Annealing. Look on LRH and the internet-there are thousands of posts on which way is the best. The only thing I can say is that if gives you the results that you want use that process. I can't say to anyone that your process that you use or the process that I use is better. If you have very good accuracy keep going on.
I use several different cartridges, different lots, different metal compositions and I use an Induction Machine with a Process that has built in electronics to determine the metal and what temp/time should be used for proper annealing.
Everyone has their own way of doing things and how does that saying go "Necessity is the Mother of Invention". Many of our reloading/shooting products came for people like here on LRH.

Thanks
Len & Jill
X-2
 

Old rooster

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Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
741
Location
Montana
They are still $1400, right?
Plus the inserts for different calibers

Good job on the video ButerBean.
Guys I shoot maybe 100 case a year total so I can't spend 1500.00 and keep my testicles,my wife will see to that.
Do the best you can with what you got!Update if you can but as ButterBean says just enjoy your sport
 
Last edited:

Philward

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Joined
Oct 17, 2015
Messages
401
I was annealing some brass a few weeks ago, 30 nosler brass from nosler, 7rm RP cases, 7rm Hornady cases, 7rm federal cases, 257 wby cases. The federal brass glowed the quickest, nosler and wby brass took the longest. Used the same time on my annealeaz for all the 7rm and when the federal cases started I had to speed up the motor, they needed a second or 2 less than the others. Like the video says the biggest gain is consistency.
 

ontarget7

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Joined
Jul 25, 2021
Messages
145
Location
Utah
They are still $1400, right?
Yep, I’ve got 8 reloads so far on some Lapua 300 PRC using the anneal rite system and still going strong.
I don’t even use the tempilaq anymore. I’ve done it enough and have a good feel for how long works well for me personally. That is 5-6 seconds on most brass that I use. Certain manufactures may vary some.
Doesn’t get much easier for a fraction of the cost.
 

Rick Richard

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Joined
Jan 7, 2014
Messages
4,391
Location
North Carolina
I have yet to be convinced on one method or product that has an advantage over the other when it comes down to accuracy. I read where product X achieves better consistency than product or method Y, but if it doesn’t shoot any better than what is the point. I still believe the margin for the achieved results after annealing with whatever product or method is so wide that most of us will not be able to discern the difference. So, whatever you feel comfortable with and works for you so be it.
 

Paulstarr

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Joined
Jan 5, 2021
Messages
78
Location
Telford UK
They are even more expensive in the UK,but and it's a big but they are really worth it.Alex Finley and the team in New Zealand have done all the hard work and all you have to do is download it.Get one you won't regret it.
 

bmmoses

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2021
Messages
5
Location
10052 Clyde Circle
I recently purchased an AGS Annealer along with the Riser and extra inserts (wish I purchased the second torch stand but can make one). Reasonable price ($250 plus extras) and works as expected. I do notice more consistent neck tension and a much better seal in the chamber. Have not verified accuracy improvement yet but this should follow with the above changes.




I use 650 degree Tempilaq on the side of the case to assure it doesn't reach this on the bottom 2/3's of the case wall. Time varies between 10 sec and 15 sec depending on caliber (longer than what I see in many videos).

Certainly not as accurate as an AMP but for my purposes it works.
 
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