A real LRH topic - I hope....

[Fiftydriver]

John,

I don't really have a dog in this fight but I just watched the video and it is OBVIOUSLY clear that that bulls *** hits the ground before his front legs even begin to buckle???

How can you say anything to the contrary, its right there in clear, plain video.

I would agree with Shawn on this one. Every critter I have hit in the high shoulder area either fell on their nose first or all four legs folded up instantly and the animal basically landed flat on the ground.

it is easy to see that the rear end of this bull collapses WAY before the front end even collapses. First time I watched the video I felt this same thing, in fact I commented to some others watching with me that that bull is not dead and will need a finisher because he is only dead on the rear half.

Unfortunately, the camera was pulled off the bull so fast that there was no chance to see any reaction from the bull even seconds after the shot. It would be interesting to see the unedited video if there was more to see after the hit.

Not trying to offend you in anyway but its things like this that cause some to question many things on your videos. They may be totally legit but the way they are presented on video just leave room for questions to be raised.

Also, if you pulled some of that extra stuff off the video at the time of shot, it would be alot easier for us to see where the bullet actually impacts. From what I see on this video, if I were shooting or spotting for this shooter, I would have called the impact about 2 minutes to the right and get ready for a follow up shot to finish the bull if possible. Obviously the bull will not get away but finishing the bull quickly would now be the goal.

Just my opinion from your video, it certainly does not appear to be a high shoulder hit and the camera was pulled off the bull so fast its impossible to say either way so we will have to take you at your word but again, you would help yourself greatly if you did not open yourself to these issues by giving the bull more camera time after the shot before pulling away and having a conversation while that bull maybe still functional on the front end. You did not stay on the spotter long enough to tell yourself if the bull was dead or not????? That alone raises questions.

If I killed a bull at +700 yards, I would have another round in the chamber and sitting on the rifle to make sure that bull was DEAD. If I was spotting, I would stay on the spotter until I KNEW it was dead, not come off both rifle and spotter to have a conversation for the video.

Again, this may have been the way the video was edited that made it look this way. If that is the case and there is some raw video of this shot on the bull, if you showed us the bull after the shot, that would clearly prove if it was a high shoulder hit of a hit back on the spine. WOuld be an easy way to prove what appears on your video to be a hit to far back, wrong.

Just my opinion.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Pdvdh]

I've seen a number of animals downed with spine shots behind the shoulders and they normally collapse just about as fast as my eyes are capable of seeing and then attempt to kick in gear but can only move their head, neck and front legs/shoulders. However I observed one bull moose do a complete backward summersault and come crashing down on the back of his head. Looked like a wrecking ball had hit him on the upswing and flipped him backwards head over heels. My hunting partner observed the very same reaction from a different bull moose that had been spined just behind the shoulders. Most animals I've observed spined behind the shoulders initially react just like this bull elk did. Bottom line - I don't think the animals immediate (first 2-3 seconds) physical reaction to an aft-shoulder spinal cord hit can be predicted with enough certainty to claim absolute knowledge. That's just presuming too much based on my past observations, and I wouldn't wager heavily against John's version of the hit based on what I saw.

I agree that an extra 15 seconds of video on the animal after the hit could have put inquisitive minds at peace.

 

[Bravo 4]

Guys in another post I said that I thought it was kinda hypocritical of John to allow his camera man to shoot that long range(703yards) pronghorn while never having shot that far. In the video it says "now Cade had never done any long range shooting befor but after filming some of these shots it looked like something he really wanted to try" then he says that they set him up with a rifle and dialed in the scope. Then Cade makes a good shot and drops the pronghorn. Now then, to ME that sounded like he had just stuck the guy behind the rifle and let him take a shot he had no business attempting. Last night I asked John about it and he assured me that Cade had been practicing on rocks and targets that far and that this was his first long range shot on an animal, not just his first long range squeeze of the trigger. I am taking him on his word and I offer him a formal apology for saying it was hypocritical. As for the part about the TV show...that is to be determined and I would like to hear from those guys. If they don't know about this site maybe I could send them an invitation to chat with us. Any objections?

 

[James Jones]

I haven't seen the actual video only the crappy grain filled version on the web throught he screen of a small 3yr old lap top so I'm not gonna make any kind of judgment call on where the bull in question was hit exactly but I will say that it sure as hell look like it hit his spine somplace between the back of the skull and the tail.
I have shot a couple elk in my time , none very big (with a rilfe) and none over 300yds ,I did shoot one small rag horn with a 30-06 Ackley , 180gr Nosler partition running close to 3000fps ,the bullet hit the bull dead center on the body on the up and down and broke the front shoulder on the way in (quartering to me) with the bullet remaining in the bull on the off side rear rib cage. This bull buckled nose first on the spot , about 10-15 seconds later he was able to stand up !! a second shot broke the opposite shoulder and anchored him for good. My reasonig for this effect of dropping the animal was that hitting the on side shoulder sent enough of a shock wave to the bulls spine to shock him to the ground him. I have seen this same effect in people being punched in the lower back (kindey area) ,it jars the spine enough to cause temperary paralisis. So I'll have to agree with Kirby that staying on the animal till your certain it expires is a good idea , it may make for a little laps in the film but it would kinda suck tohave the animal get up and wonder off before you got to it.

John , what caliber rifle are you shooting in these videos??

 

[Shawn Carlock]

John,

Since there was no conversation in the video about the location of that particular hit I was relying on what I saw on the video to determine hit location. The back end hitting the ground first is a small issue. Most of the (but not all) high shoulder shots I have done or seen dropped evenly front and rear with a few leading front ended. I would have said nothing if that had been the only thing you could see. I have watched this portion of the video several times since this post opened and it still looks like a blood spot coming from mid back at spine level. This was a large part of the basis of my opinion. If this is shadowing in the video, some optical illusion or I am flatly seeing something that just wasn't there then I am sorry for my comments. All I have had to go on since buying the video years ago, is the video. All along I have maintained that the video has alot of great footage and is worth having. I didn't want this to turn into a ****ing match. I have been on your side of comments like this before that didn't happen the way others though after seeing the video (remember I come from a law enforcement background). You were there and again I was not if you say it was a high shoulder shot I will go with that despite what I think I see on the video. I am curious and not being sarcastic here am I the only one that sees this mid back spot appear after the shot? I doubt you will see it from the utube footage, you will have to look at the actual video. I just want to know if I am losing my mind.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Shawn,

Since you have mentioned it, it is clear there is a dark patch just ahead of the ham up near the spine when the bull drop and the split second after it hits the ground, or at least as long as the camer stays zoomed in to where you can see it.

I can not tell for sure what this is. There is something there for sure that is not there before the shot but I can not say its not a shadow or something caused by the change in physical positioning of the bull after impact.

Will have to look at this harder in relationship to the angle of the sun.Judging from the other shadows in the view should be able to get an idea if its a shadow or body fluid stain.

John,

I would also like to comment that I am not against you in this fight. I have seen some things on your video that offered the possibility of questioning what with a bit of explination could have easily been cleared up. You have some of the best long range videos on the market for sure but just the fact of what your doing, you will be examined with amazing detail from those that want to prove you wrong. That is not my goal here in any way, just to mention that if you offered a bit more info or a bit more video you could prove every aspect of your hunts so there would be no question.

10 seconds of video of the bull laying on the ground would be all that was needed. If he did not twitch, great, if he could just move his head and neck, you have proved your point beyond any shadow of a doubt. If he could get his front end under him, it would require a finishing shot and may not be usible for video for the commerical market......

Things happen in the field, shots do not ALWAYS land where we expect them to. Sometimes things go wrong and we still have lock on our side and the animal still drops and we should be thankful for that.

Still, from what we can see on the actual video, like I mentioned before, If I were on the rifle, I would not have called that a dead elk. I would have called it a disabled elk but not dead and I would have stayed on the rifle until I could have seen something to prove to myself he did not have the ability to regain his feet and move from where he had dropped.

It is not as common with elk as it is deer but its not unheard of to see a bull elk drop on his face only to regain his feet after several seconds. A bullet simply passing close to the spinal column can at times produce enough stress to the nervous system to cause a temporary shut down causing the animal to drop to the impact, only to regain his feet and get away.

Not I am certainly not saying this is what happened in any way, what I am saying is that from the appearance of the video, you and the shooter took less then 5 seconds to monitor the bull after the shot to make SURE he was dead. In my opinion, that just looks bad. If it was edited this way, just gives the wrong impression on what SHOULD be done after a long range shot.

Confidence is great, a must have, over confidence will eventually lead to disaster with long range hunting and sometimes that will come after what appears to be a solid, killing impact on the game animal.

Thats my only point, no offense intended in any way, just one long range hunters opinion on what should happen after the shot, just in case.....

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[nolo263]

I have the entire video and I think it is awesome.. I will not critique anything on that video unless I had a video that was better. I only wish that someone made another one like John's, or that John would make another one.

Good work on that video John..

NOLO

 

[John Burns]

Some people wonder why I don't go on the internet more.

This started with Shawn Carlock making some fairly bold statements about a video I produced.

Shawn Carlock questioned the amount of luck involved in a 743yd 1 shot kill on a bull elk.
a. Before the shot I clearly said Len would dump the bull
b. Len dumps the bull
c. Lucky??

Shawn Carlock claims he can determine from the video that the shot lands midship and 16-20" from Lens aiming point
a. The bull hits the ground without taking a step and never gets back up.
b. The bull falls in exactly the same manner as 13 other high shoulder shots in the video
c. 5 frames before the butt hits the ground the front legs begin to buckle

Shawn Carlock states there is "blood streaming from a spot 10-12" forward of the pelvis"
a. I can not see blood streaming and no one else can either
b. I my experience a gut shot entrance hole will not "stream blood" in the first 5 seconds
c. As can be seen from the video none of the high shoulder shots or chest shots where the bullet impact can clearly be seen have "blood streaming" from them
d. How anyone with any experience would think there would be any "blood streaming" from an entrance wound anywhere on this elk in the amount of time shown is beyond me

Shawn Carlock states there is nothing in the video to indicate or support that it was a high shoulder hit.
a. How about the bull crashing to the ground in exactly the same manner as 13 other high shoulder shots on the video

Grit thought it was "pretty acute of Shawn to spot how badly they missed"

I myself might have used a different word than "acute"

Boman was not surprised that "Shawn noticed that hit landed off the mark."

Boman also "sent that video to Kirby for him to see and he pointed out a bunch of stuff that I missed."

I can't wait for the rest of it

Boman then stated "Kirby and Shawn are real pros and prove it time and time again. Great topic though."

Great indeed.

Royinidaho "thinks that those like Shawn and Kirby otta go on the road with their act.
Wouldn't it be sweet to see Kirby doing the Wednesday night thing at Sportman's or Cabelas? I chuckle at the thought.

There have been some very informative posts re: this topic. I've learned a bunch."

I too have learned a bunch

Any one with the DVD can back up 5 frames from the bulls butt hitting the ground and clearly see his front legs begin to buckle. This same physical reaction to the high shoulder hit is shown in no less than 13 other kills in the video.

 

[cross]

Thanks John

Kudos from me as well John. I've been putting to use the equipment and techniques introduced to me on your show and your videos for several years. I see and take more critters as a result. I never took your advice as the bible but used it as a foundation on which to build my own opinions based on my own experiences and results.

Thanks for that.

 

[Fiftydriver]

John,

I can not speak for Shawn but from what I read in his post is that from the apperance in the video, it looks like the windage was off on the shot and his comments about luck are simply that if this was the case, it was lucky that the bullet hit the spine and not lower as it would have been a lost elk more then likely from the apparent impact on the video.

I cerrtainly know for a fact that Shawn would NEVER say making a one shot kill on a bull elk at 743 yards is lucky in any way. I have shot with Shawn and know full well in shooting conditions appropriate for this shot distance, that would be nothing but a chip shot for Shawn. I would say it would be a chip shot for many on LRH and you as well obviously. I do not believe he stated this was luck to make the shot at this range, I believe his comments were simply that if the bullet impacted where it appeared to have impacted, it would have in fact been very lucky things did not go very bad and the luck was in hitting the spine.

With editing programs used today, its impossible to say the the order of events on the video are as they happened in the field. There is no way to disprove that so we will take you at your word as there is no point discussing something that we can not prove either way. You were there, you said it happened this way, so be it.

Anyway, my point stands, if you would have kept the camera on the bull for another 10-15 seconds after the shot, the proof would have been right there for all of us to see, instead the camera instantly pans back to cover your conversation with Len and the camera. I hope this is just editing that makes it look this way because pulling your full attention away from a bull elk that hit the ground 5 seconds earlier is a very unwise thing to do. Again, in my opinion, confidence is a great thing, Over confidence is a disaster waiting to happen.

From your comments about me its clear you do not believe I have any right to have a conversation with you for some reason. I personally have no desire to be on TV. I would rather just build rifles and get good reports from customers on how they perform on big game at long range. I know you build fine rifles and have taken things to the commerical level with your videos but when you do that you have to realize it opens you up as a target for critizism, educated, constructive or uneducated.

I was simply trying to recommend something that would put all these questions to rest once and for all but it seems you have no desire to do that so again, you were there, we will take you at your word that it happened as you said it did.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[James Jones]

Kirby you would never make it on TV ,the smile ain't right but your rifles on the other hand.

Anyhow , So John , tell us a little bit about your rifle.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Just for S&G while sitting here having some lunch I watched the rest of the video clip that started this discussion. What I saw on the next hunt with the herd of elk on the rocky face concerns me MUCH more then the first elk killed.

There are several things that trouble me here. The range is 562 yards, most would agree this is bascially a chip shot in good conditions on an elk size vital zone. So whats my problem with it?

Just before the shot, a cow elk walks behind the bull that is being targets by the shooter who I believe is John. It may not be him but he is the one holding the rack after the shot. There is a very real possibility that that cow could have been hit with a pass through bullet.

We should really be debating the shot placement on this bull instead of the first one. At the shot, the bulls rear falls out from under the bull. THe front legs do not, AT ALL, in fact the bull tried to pull himself up the rock shelf with his front legs telling us obviously the shot placement of the bullet on this bull.

The camera stays on this bull for a grand total of three seconds, even so, during this time you can clearly see the bull make at least two clear attemps to pull himself up the hill with his front legs. You can clearly hear the bolt worked on the rifle and a second round chambered. Then the camera cuts off and the next scene shows the bull 20 yards down the hill on its side. Was this a one shot kill??????????????? If I were a betting man, I would say there were two bullet holes in that bull because that first one was not a killing shot from what appeared on the video.

I guess in my mind the high shoulder shot is a good place to aim for but at 560 yards, it sound not be missed like this. I would much rather see the shooter take out a lower chest shot that offered them more error in impact. Watching a bull run off with two punched lungs and falling after 30-50 yards would be much better in my opinion then watching the rear end fall out from under a bull just so you can say you dropped him where he stood

A dead bull running 50 yards means alot more to me as a hunter then a parapalegic bull that falls on the spot only to desperately try to pull himself up the rock face withhis front legs, then all of a sudden there the bull is siding down the hill 20 yards from where he fell? Again, just raises questions for those that know where as John could have clarified this with simply letting the video run.

In my opinion, taking the shot with the cow standing behind the front end of the bull is simply very poor judgement, better to pass on the shot and go home with nothing then risk wounding another animal because you it was more important to have a successful hunt then care about wounding a secondary animal, not acceptable.

Again, that second elk killed is much more troubling to me then the first. but then again, thats just my unqualified opinion.

For those that want to learn about long range shooting that can be applied to long range hunting, Shawn will be releasing a video this spring that I have had the honor to preview and offer my opinion to Shawn. There is nothing I can really say to Shawn to improve his video other then put on more long range shooting scenes as we can never get enough of those. but for those that want to LEARN about long range shooting, actually understand it, this is the best video I have watched.

If you have good equipment, you can watch Shawns video and learn what is needed to make consistant long range hits and with true precision.

Well enough for now, lunch is over, time to get back in the shop.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

James,

You got that right, they would take one look at my ugly mug and cancel any chance of a show!!!! TV is for pretty people, not very many hunters fill that bill!!! I certainly don't!! LOL

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Shawn Carlock]

John,

This will be that last time I post on this topic as it is turning into what I had hoped it would not. Go back and read the posts carefully without being mad. As I have stated initially the only thing I had to go on was what I see on video until you posted. In the video I believed I saw what looked like a blood spot back toward the pelvis high on the spine. No where did I ever say I thought it was a gut shot. What I said was that hit that far back it was lucky in that it appeared to be a spine hit. If it had been a few inches lower it would have been a bad hit. Now if the spot I see in my video ( and many others have seen ) is something else like an odd shadow, some video aberation etc. Then I will gladly give credit where credit is due. How the animal dropped alone is not conclusive of anything one way or the other I have seen them do some odd stuff after good hits. My initial statement was based purely on my perception of the video footage. You say it was a perfect high shoulder hit and you were there I will accept that and kudos to Len. As a side note I hope that the "anyone with any experience" comment was simply because you were upset. You don't know me or truely what my entire back ground consists of but I will assure you I have a fair amount of experience in the subject matter here.