Metronome, case chucked in back gear, dim light, Coleman fuel, at the shoulder neck junction @ 45 degrees till just seeing red glow inside neck....... works for me, maybe not everybody but low cost, even for benchrest too
A hot topic, how do you get a hot piece of brass
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Well today I kept the metronome on and instead of going by a definite count I lowered the flame some and just watched till I could see the anneal go down the shoulder and stopped, took a little longer but brass looked much like my new Lapua brass, what I noticed is while seating my setting stayed pretty close to the same for all bullets compared to my specific timing which made a bigger spread in my seating adjustment. I also noticed I would just start to see a little red as I was taking them out of the flame so I don't think I was annealing enough before.
Don't know. Getting the brass that soft would require heating it well beyond the 'just beginning to glow' stage. I'd reason that it might be possible to get the mouth that soft without melting it but you'd likely be right on the edge of melting or deforming it.
That's way beyond an effective anneal: One that helps make seating tension more consistent, reduces ES & SD, relaxes the work hardening of sizing / firing and increases brass life. Our goals in annealing.
Time and temperature BOTH matter, according to Reese (guy in the videos). A metronome if you're flame annealing on a budget or an electronic timer in more costly flame and induction devices provides control and consistency.
Heating a case mouth to the point that you could distort it by hand has to be more than the difference in six seconds instead of five (a 20% increase). WAG it's around double the time, so a gross change. You don't have to go that far to achieve an effective anneal. You can download a metronome app to your phone for free.
Once you've established a time that heats the neck & shoulder to dull red - regardless of the heating method - is there any reason not to use some kinda timer to improve process consistency?
I can't think of one. So serious question: Why would anyone heat cases to the point that the case mouth can be distorted by hand?
Edit 11:58 am: Grammar / clarity
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I still used the timer to see how far I went beyond what I was, but yes it still makes sense to use it and know how long whatever brass you have will take depending on brand and if it looks like it may need a split second more go with it.
backwoods83
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Doesn't look like enough to me. I have had a Ken Light, Benchsource, Annealeeze, and now I have an AMP with 21 or so pilots. Yes, it's very expensive, but it's also very consistent and easy to use. A lot of money, but I'd spend it again. After all, we waste more tinkering with new gadgets that aren't necessary, than we usually spend on normal stuff.
backwoods83
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It's not down in the shoulder enough for consistent shoulder bump, in my opinion. It's really hard to over anneal. Brass that you would normally do for 5 seconds, probably won't change with 10 seconds, but it's all about the consistency in time.
Yeah but....
1) Appearance is uneliable. Nobody can look at a picture of your cases & tell whether they're annealed sufficiently to decrease ES & SD.
2) As per my understanding of Reese on the Ranges YT videos on annealing, 1000* F for around five seconds (.308 / 6.5 CM / 7-08 & similar) achieves a good anneal. He specifically says 'forget Tempilaq.' For why, watch his vids. Regardless of how cases are annealed (flame or induction) that means just beginning the case neck, shoulder & a little way down the body reaching a dull red glow. 'A little way' is about the same distance below the shoulder as the shoulder height itself, to twice the shoulder height.
NEITHER will overheat the case head to the point of danger or anywhere close. Reese, a metallurgist by profession, says in his video series that bras of 70% copper / 30 % zinc would require an hour at 750* F to anneal. Neither flame nor induction heats the case head to that temperature; the case mouth & shoulder would be a melted blob about 59 minutes before the case head achieves that temp. Seriously - it's OK for the top 20% of the straight portion of the case wall to show a color change once the case cools. That's what Lapua, Peterson, Nammo & other quality brass looks like.
Thick case walls (0.0014 & .0015 at the mouth) like the above will take longer than Federal, Winchester, Hornady and similar measuring 0.0012-.0013. TURN OFF THE LIGHTS, DRAW THE BLINDS & watch 'em. Going 20% over the time required to achieve a dull red glow is highly unlikely to cause a case head to fail unless you're heating THE ENTIRE CASE to a dull red glow. Your cases indicate that you're NOT. You're doing flame annealing. Aim the inner blue part of the flame at the neck-shoulder junction and anneal for a time that achieves the dull red glow.
Thicker case walls will probably require 20-50% longer. Whatever it takes. Cherry red: TOO HOT for TOO LONG. IME, this cannot be judged in normal room lighting. However, once you achieve it by heating to a high enough temp for long enough, you can turn the lights on & proceed.
Watch -this- video. It's Reese commenting on EC annealing. The most informative portion is from about 13 minutes to the end. When Reese talks about 'the flat part of the curve' he's referring to one of his own videos in which he discusses and draws pictures of annealing at a sufficient temp for sufficiently long that one reaches a point such that more heat or time results in little change in the properties (including strength) of the neck & shoulder.
This happens well before the case head gets hot enough to compromise it's structural integrity - that is, to be dangerous. Unless you're using the oven (heating the entire case) or heating the neck / shoulder area to the point of failure.
The case head WILL get too hot to touch / hold when you properly anneal the neck and shoulder. But the thermal properties of brass are such that the case head will not get much over 200* F and will cool within 30-40 seconds to the point that it can be handled with bare skin.
Too hot to hold doesn't mean the case head has lost it's structural integrity.
Further notes: I deprime with a universal depriming die - no sizing -, wet tumble the cases as my OCD wants clean primer pockets. Then trim / chamfer as required (usually no more often than 4-5 firings) size & bump the shoulder, set neck tension, prime off press, dump powder & seat the bullet.
Hope this answers your question.
Concur that further down the case wall (1-2X the shoulder height) is better.
While many of us might like an AMP, (I'd buy one in a second if I could) I doubt that it's necessary to achieve an anneal that helps keep seating tension more consistent thereby reducing ES & SD. And lengthens case life.
As per the long answer I posted above, anneal the neck, shoulder & top 20% (or less) of the case wall to a dull red. Use a metronome or electronic timer to achieve a consistent annealing time. Turn the lights on and finish the batch.
BINGO.
If I bought one it would have to be an induction one, my results are pretty consistent with metronome so I don't feel I would be gaining much, problem is I didn't do these enough but I'll add a little more time, was worried about going to far when I seen that slight red color but now I know I can go farther, it's probably the easiest part of reloading, I'm not as fast as a machine but can do a lot in 10 minutes, lot easier then trimming cases or I should say not a pain in the *** like trimming cases.
