MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with this in my own experience. I find that when shooting prone, it's more natural and comfortable to shoot with the 6" setting. And it would definitely be more stable.
A day of "firsts" for me and my shooting. Please comment.
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I have to agree with this in my own experience. I find that when shooting prone, it's more natural and comfortable to shoot with the 6" setting. And it would definitely be more stable.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Someone else could give you a better idea about loading the bipod but I'll give it a wack. I get settled in but I hold my shoulder back and when I'm settled down I let things relax and the rifle pushes forward putting tension on the legs. I found that the gun recoils straight back if loaded and if not it will jump and flop a little which does not happen in a consitant manner each shot. It lets me loosen up my body cause the bipod and my shoulder weight holds the rifle, not gripping the stock and pulling it into my shoulder creating tention that will release at the shot when I should be letting the gun recoil and following through.
You'll understand it if you give it a try, I sometimes have to dig my legs in a little to keep from slipping. I'm going to make a claw foot for traction.
I can't shoot of a 6-9 bipod, it puts me in a bad position with my glasses and head position, the 13in works good for me.
You'll understand it if you give it a try, I sometimes have to dig my legs in a little to keep from slipping. I'm going to make a claw foot for traction.
I can't shoot of a 6-9 bipod, it puts me in a bad position with my glasses and head position, the 13in works good for me.
Last edited:
trevor73402
Well-Known Member
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- Nov 6, 2009
- Messages
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Thanks for the reply Bob.
I will try preloading the bipod tomorrow.
As for needing a taller bipod....maybe I do maybe I dont. Im a bigger guy up top. I lift alot of weights and I have big arms, shoulders, and chest. When Im in the prone position getting ready for the shot if I shoulder my rifle the way I feel like I should in close and tight in the pocket of my shoulder the barrell is pointed way too low and nowhere near high enough to aquire my target. I have to let the butt of the rifle slide down and out of the pocket to get my POA where it needs to be. I kinda feel like Im more on top of the rifle rather than behind it.
I was already thinking about a stock pack to raise the comb....I noticed that also.
trebark
Well-Known Member
Trevor:
Everyone here is right...that's some good shootin' for your first time out at that range. You've also got some great equipment - much better than what most folks start off with - especially your scope.
Here are my suggestions for you (not necessarily in priority order)....
1. Trigger Job - have a competent gunsmith reduce your trigger pull to 2.5 or 3 pounds. Although your SPS might be new enough that it has a single adjustment screw so you can make the adjustment yourself. A light trigger pull is key to accuracy because it keeps you from pulling the rifle off target. Your stock trigger is probably 6 or 7 pounds now.
2. Bed Your Action - although you have a great stock, it might help to have your stock skim coated so that there are no gaps and no uneven torque on your action.
3. Reloading - It sounds like you've loaded those Bergers to an overall cartridge length that the 'book' says is the maximum. Bergers really like to be up close to the lands, if not jammed into them a little bit. For instance, according to 'the book' the OAL of a 308win is 2.80. In my 308 (an SPS-V also... http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f53/my-308-1k-rifle-evolution-continues-43510/ ) I load the 175VLD to an overall cartridge length of 3.02. Here's a video that will help you determine your maximum overall cartridge length.
YouTube - Making a Overall Length Guage
Also, here's a great article on loading Bergers... http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...accuracy-berger-vld-bullets-your-rifle-40204/
4. Chronograph - get one. It will end the guess work on how fast your bullet is flying. A decent one will cost you less than $100 new.
5. Adjustable Cheek Piece - the odds are the cheekpiece on your rifle is too low. this causes you to crane your neck up to see threw your scope. With an adjustable cheek piece you can raise your cheek up some so that you get a good cheek weld - this will provide consistency. Defensive Edge Products
6. Recrown Your Barrel - Often the bore of a factory barrel is not square with the crown and subsequently affecting accuracy. A gunsmith can recrown your barrel for ~$75. Matter of fact, you could probably get a gunsmith to give you a price break if you get him to recrown, bed the action and adjust your trigger all at one time.
7. Run from this website as fast as you can! You've started down a road of addiction that will drain your wallet and create a desire to be outdoors shooting all the time. You will neglect other priorities in your life. This addiction grows deeper when you spend your shooting time with friends and family. There is no known cure for this addiction. All you can hope to do is keep the withdrawal symptoms to a minumum by shooting as often as possible.
Everyone here is right...that's some good shootin' for your first time out at that range. You've also got some great equipment - much better than what most folks start off with - especially your scope.
Here are my suggestions for you (not necessarily in priority order)....
1. Trigger Job - have a competent gunsmith reduce your trigger pull to 2.5 or 3 pounds. Although your SPS might be new enough that it has a single adjustment screw so you can make the adjustment yourself. A light trigger pull is key to accuracy because it keeps you from pulling the rifle off target. Your stock trigger is probably 6 or 7 pounds now.
2. Bed Your Action - although you have a great stock, it might help to have your stock skim coated so that there are no gaps and no uneven torque on your action.
3. Reloading - It sounds like you've loaded those Bergers to an overall cartridge length that the 'book' says is the maximum. Bergers really like to be up close to the lands, if not jammed into them a little bit. For instance, according to 'the book' the OAL of a 308win is 2.80. In my 308 (an SPS-V also... http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f53/my-308-1k-rifle-evolution-continues-43510/ ) I load the 175VLD to an overall cartridge length of 3.02. Here's a video that will help you determine your maximum overall cartridge length.
YouTube - Making a Overall Length Guage
Also, here's a great article on loading Bergers... http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...accuracy-berger-vld-bullets-your-rifle-40204/
4. Chronograph - get one. It will end the guess work on how fast your bullet is flying. A decent one will cost you less than $100 new.
5. Adjustable Cheek Piece - the odds are the cheekpiece on your rifle is too low. this causes you to crane your neck up to see threw your scope. With an adjustable cheek piece you can raise your cheek up some so that you get a good cheek weld - this will provide consistency. Defensive Edge Products
6. Recrown Your Barrel - Often the bore of a factory barrel is not square with the crown and subsequently affecting accuracy. A gunsmith can recrown your barrel for ~$75. Matter of fact, you could probably get a gunsmith to give you a price break if you get him to recrown, bed the action and adjust your trigger all at one time.
7. Run from this website as fast as you can! You've started down a road of addiction that will drain your wallet and create a desire to be outdoors shooting all the time. You will neglect other priorities in your life. This addiction grows deeper when you spend your shooting time with friends and family. There is no known cure for this addiction. All you can hope to do is keep the withdrawal symptoms to a minumum by shooting as often as possible.
trevor73402
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2009
- Messages
- 132
THanks for the vote of confidence Chas....maybe I do need to relax, but hunting and shooting (less than 200yds) is something that Ive always been good at compared to my friends and relatives so I guess I hold myself to high standards. Im a "perfectionist" in most aspects of my life and stuff like this drives me crazy until I get it right. Although I was not really happy with my shooting today, I did have fun and I learned alot from just a couple hours in the field. When I decided to get into this im not sure what I was thinking....I guess I thought I was just going to build a rifle and just start shooting 600-1000 yds.....I mean it didnt really seem like something I couldnt do. Guess I got alot to learn!!!Trevor, relax! That's good shooting >1moa @ nearly 400 yards period. Now take into consideration your experience, new to the rifle and position and I'd say it isn't just good but outstanding. You've been given some excellent advise especially with respect to the trigger and staying with 6-9" bipod. Your definitly on the right coarse with rifle/scope components as well as other gear ie range finder etc. Often our gun shoots better than the shooter, so I think working on your technique and position is wise on your part. Keep us posted on what you attribute accuracy improvements to. Again, relax!
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Sounds to me like you're a special case then
Maybe you do need a little higher bi-pod and if you rifle wasn't naturally fitted to your shoulder and scope to eye, that may have had a considerable effect on your results. I have always found that getting my body into a natural and comfortable position goes a long way in good shooting.It also sounds like you have your basic marksmanship skills for bench shooting down... now you need to just get it wired for prone field shooting and a taller bi-pod may help.
justgoto
Well-Known Member
I second this comment.
Oliveralan
Well-Known Member
Your being a little hard on yourself... Relax and have fun.
As for some tips, get your trigger adjusted, action skim bedded, and barrel recrowned.
You said you lasered the target at 397yards, does your rangefinder have a built in angle cosign indicator? Or did it give you a "laser" distance to the target? You have to compensate for the angle of the shot. I know ballistic FTE has a function for that. You can hold your iPhone/iTouch against the barrel when aiming at the target to get the correct angle. This would explain the overshooting by 6".
Also, like .280fan said, load the bergers out a lot longer. Load them touching the lands or for ease of extraction load them as close as you can to the rifling without touching it.
And finaly, get out and shoot! By the way, you have a beast of a scope.
-Oliver
As for some tips, get your trigger adjusted, action skim bedded, and barrel recrowned.
You said you lasered the target at 397yards, does your rangefinder have a built in angle cosign indicator? Or did it give you a "laser" distance to the target? You have to compensate for the angle of the shot. I know ballistic FTE has a function for that. You can hold your iPhone/iTouch against the barrel when aiming at the target to get the correct angle. This would explain the overshooting by 6".
Also, like .280fan said, load the bergers out a lot longer. Load them touching the lands or for ease of extraction load them as close as you can to the rifling without touching it.
And finaly, get out and shoot! By the way, you have a beast of a scope.
-Oliver
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
The tips for accurizing his rifle are all good, but, he said he shoots clover leaf groups off the bench, so I dont think rifle accuracy is a big issue. It couldn't hurt to do these things, but I think main thing is to get squared on prone shooting in the field. JMO
trevor73402
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- Joined
- Nov 6, 2009
- Messages
- 132
I agree that some of theses things prolly would benefit me, but I do shoot tight groups with the rifle off the bench at 100 yards. And the comments about loading the Bergers out farther to touch the lands....well I've tried that and everything in between from jammed in to all the way back where i have the currently and this is where my rifle shoots them the best loaded at a COAL of 2.824. This is pretty deep and even below what will fit in the magazine, but that's just how the gun likes them with the load I'm using.
Nice shooting, especially given the # of firsts you had that day. Lots of good advice ehre, so I'll give you my 2 cents, and worth every penny you paid.
First, given how the rifle shoots from the bench and on your 1st day in the field, I would hold off making any gear-related changes right now. I believe that your ability to make long-range shots will be limited by your skills right now, rather than equipment. So rather than having your rifle in a shop getting worked on, you should have it in the field, being shot.
As to skill-building, I think your approach should be that you're going to put in 10-15 days of high-quality shooting. (If you're unemployed, that might only be a few weeks!!! Ha!) That typically can mean as few as 20-50 shots per day, but each individual shot counts. It can be more, but it doesn't' have to be. More importantly is what you do with each shot.
First, get/build a logbook. Before you go out again, you should be ready to record each individual shot and have it be a useful piece of data for you as you build your skills.
You are working on 3 things for now: Elevation, windage, and marksmanship.
That's just one way to think about the areas of uncertainty you need to address to make a long-range cold bore shot.
Elevation - it seems this one's simple, because you have a laser. Even better, you're practicing ranging your own shots if the laser's unavailable. Perfect.
Now you need to start figuring out what your dope is for your rifle in different conditions. The ONLY way to do that is to be meticulous in your data-gathering, hence the logbook. Most important for hunting, you need to gather your data for your cold bore shot (CBS) as well as your dope for the different distances, and determine how those change with conditions. So every time you shoot, you need to know where the 1st shot of the day went. Your logbook should have a place to record your CBS; that's the most important shot of the day.
Next, you must have a way to figure out if your zero shifts from day-to-day. If you leave one day with your rifle zero'd at 100 yards, and the next day you come back and it's hitting an inch higher, you have to be able to track it so you can figure out why? Is it temperature? Your hold? Your reloads? Other? If you don't log it, you won't see the patterns. I'm sure there's much more here on building a good logbook, but you need one.
Each individual shot, you should take the shot and record in your book where you think the shot should have gone, based on your sight picture when the shot break. You record your call, and then you compare this to the actual impact. You then use this data over time to figure out how well you're shooting, and what are the variables.
In 10-15 days of shooting, your goal should be to have a good baseline of data for every yardline between 100-some distance TBD. You should also have an idea of what your comeups is at each of those ranges, and some of the variables that affect these range zeros. Now when you gather a distance, you don't need your iphone; you look at your chart for your own rifle and say that 'MY rifle will need X minutes of elevation at this distance, under today's conditions.' That's Goal #1.
Windage - calling your wind will be critical to success. The only way to learn is to do it, so once again, the logbook is critical. You estimate your wind for every shot, take your shot, and then see how much wind was actually out there. The logbook will be critical again, because it shows you what happened vs. what you predicted. Once again, read up on calling wind. I won't waste your time recalling what you might already know.
Your end goal is similar; being able to look out at a target and say 'I see X knots of wind out there, and with MY rifle and loads, I need to dial in (or hold) Y amount of wind to hit my target.'
Marksmanship - this means getting used to doing all the fundamentals of marksmanship with that rifle, prone off a bipod - or whatever position you want to be able to shoot from.
You need to know that you can get on that gun, and your body positioning and shooting fundamentals will be entirely repeatable every time. In short, you need to be confident that any differences in POI are not due to shooter error, or a shift in body position/bipod loading, cheekweld, etc., Your actions need to be consistent and repeatable.
One way is see where you are on this is to have your rifle perfectly zero'd and on target. Then take a shot, get up completely from the position, move around, and then come back on the gun a bit later and shoot again. Shoot a group this way. If the group opens up beyond what conditions dictate, then it indicates that you're not resetting the same way every time. That will lead to your zero shifting from day to day.
Experiment, read, and try different positions until you are rock-steady behind your rifle, and you do not shift your zero.
That's what I'd suggest you do, and completely put any equipment modifications on the backburner for the 10-15 days of shooting. Make each day count, get accurate data from each days shooting and record your notes. It's not about 300 rounds a day, or 8 hours on the range. Don't go out to plink, go out to do some long-range shooting; it's a completely different mindset. It's about high quality shots with complete focus.
After 10-15 days, you will have begun to understand your rifle, you will have started to understand the wind, and you will also have started to solidify YOUR personal shooting position that works best for your frame. Based on those days, you will also start to see some modifications you may want to make to your rifle or gear setup.
For now, focus on the shooting, and wait until you've reached those goals before you worry about gear. After those 10-15 days, post an update, and tell us what you've learned. You'll know a whole bunch more, and you'll have a hundred new questions that will lead you down the rabbit hole of long-range shooting.
First, given how the rifle shoots from the bench and on your 1st day in the field, I would hold off making any gear-related changes right now. I believe that your ability to make long-range shots will be limited by your skills right now, rather than equipment. So rather than having your rifle in a shop getting worked on, you should have it in the field, being shot.
As to skill-building, I think your approach should be that you're going to put in 10-15 days of high-quality shooting. (If you're unemployed, that might only be a few weeks!!! Ha!) That typically can mean as few as 20-50 shots per day, but each individual shot counts. It can be more, but it doesn't' have to be. More importantly is what you do with each shot.
First, get/build a logbook. Before you go out again, you should be ready to record each individual shot and have it be a useful piece of data for you as you build your skills.
You are working on 3 things for now: Elevation, windage, and marksmanship.
That's just one way to think about the areas of uncertainty you need to address to make a long-range cold bore shot.
Elevation - it seems this one's simple, because you have a laser. Even better, you're practicing ranging your own shots if the laser's unavailable. Perfect.
Now you need to start figuring out what your dope is for your rifle in different conditions. The ONLY way to do that is to be meticulous in your data-gathering, hence the logbook. Most important for hunting, you need to gather your data for your cold bore shot (CBS) as well as your dope for the different distances, and determine how those change with conditions. So every time you shoot, you need to know where the 1st shot of the day went. Your logbook should have a place to record your CBS; that's the most important shot of the day.
Next, you must have a way to figure out if your zero shifts from day-to-day. If you leave one day with your rifle zero'd at 100 yards, and the next day you come back and it's hitting an inch higher, you have to be able to track it so you can figure out why? Is it temperature? Your hold? Your reloads? Other? If you don't log it, you won't see the patterns. I'm sure there's much more here on building a good logbook, but you need one.
Each individual shot, you should take the shot and record in your book where you think the shot should have gone, based on your sight picture when the shot break. You record your call, and then you compare this to the actual impact. You then use this data over time to figure out how well you're shooting, and what are the variables.
In 10-15 days of shooting, your goal should be to have a good baseline of data for every yardline between 100-some distance TBD. You should also have an idea of what your comeups is at each of those ranges, and some of the variables that affect these range zeros. Now when you gather a distance, you don't need your iphone; you look at your chart for your own rifle and say that 'MY rifle will need X minutes of elevation at this distance, under today's conditions.' That's Goal #1.
Windage - calling your wind will be critical to success. The only way to learn is to do it, so once again, the logbook is critical. You estimate your wind for every shot, take your shot, and then see how much wind was actually out there. The logbook will be critical again, because it shows you what happened vs. what you predicted. Once again, read up on calling wind. I won't waste your time recalling what you might already know.
Your end goal is similar; being able to look out at a target and say 'I see X knots of wind out there, and with MY rifle and loads, I need to dial in (or hold) Y amount of wind to hit my target.'
Marksmanship - this means getting used to doing all the fundamentals of marksmanship with that rifle, prone off a bipod - or whatever position you want to be able to shoot from.
You need to know that you can get on that gun, and your body positioning and shooting fundamentals will be entirely repeatable every time. In short, you need to be confident that any differences in POI are not due to shooter error, or a shift in body position/bipod loading, cheekweld, etc., Your actions need to be consistent and repeatable.
One way is see where you are on this is to have your rifle perfectly zero'd and on target. Then take a shot, get up completely from the position, move around, and then come back on the gun a bit later and shoot again. Shoot a group this way. If the group opens up beyond what conditions dictate, then it indicates that you're not resetting the same way every time. That will lead to your zero shifting from day to day.
Experiment, read, and try different positions until you are rock-steady behind your rifle, and you do not shift your zero.
That's what I'd suggest you do, and completely put any equipment modifications on the backburner for the 10-15 days of shooting. Make each day count, get accurate data from each days shooting and record your notes. It's not about 300 rounds a day, or 8 hours on the range. Don't go out to plink, go out to do some long-range shooting; it's a completely different mindset. It's about high quality shots with complete focus.
After 10-15 days, you will have begun to understand your rifle, you will have started to understand the wind, and you will also have started to solidify YOUR personal shooting position that works best for your frame. Based on those days, you will also start to see some modifications you may want to make to your rifle or gear setup.
For now, focus on the shooting, and wait until you've reached those goals before you worry about gear. After those 10-15 days, post an update, and tell us what you've learned. You'll know a whole bunch more, and you'll have a hundred new questions that will lead you down the rabbit hole of long-range shooting.
HUAINAMACHERO
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2008
- Messages
- 1,080
Trevor,
1st: NICE LOOKING RIFLE
2nd: Sub MOA group at that distance (more than good to me for your first time shooting that far)
3rd: You have had some great advice in the past replies. Dont be so hard on yourself and practice some more.
As said before I would get a chrony so you know the exact velocity of your shots, adjust the trigger so it is around 2 pounds, and practice, practice and practice. You will only shoot better after this.
Keep us posted on your results, I am sure that if you follow all the great advice the forum friends have given you, your shooting results will be much better the next time.
HAVE FUN and keep us posted.
1st: NICE LOOKING RIFLE
2nd: Sub MOA group at that distance (more than good to me for your first time shooting that far)
3rd: You have had some great advice in the past replies. Dont be so hard on yourself and practice some more.
As said before I would get a chrony so you know the exact velocity of your shots, adjust the trigger so it is around 2 pounds, and practice, practice and practice. You will only shoot better after this.
Keep us posted on your results, I am sure that if you follow all the great advice the forum friends have given you, your shooting results will be much better the next time.
HAVE FUN and keep us posted.
MSLRHunter
Well-Known Member
Good shooting! We are at about the same place in the long range shooting, so I know what you are going through. Luckily, we have some great guys that dont hesitate to share their expertise with us. So keep practicing and keep us posted oh how it goes. MERRY CHRISTMAS
Bro, you and your new rig produced sub MOA results at 400 yds on your first trip to the range with handloads you developed. That is dynamite! This is a success and you should be elated. You are not even warmed up yet. Once you find a comfortable, solid, stable, prone shooting position and get some time on the trigger, I have no doubt you and your rig will soon be punching sub MOA at twice that distance.
I would not mess with your load or the rifle at this point. With the Bergers, both my 300WSM and 7mmRM shot best with alot of jump to the rifle lands (about .120) and both of them produce sub moa @ 1000yds. If you are shooting clover leafs at 100, your rifle and load are on the right track. If you don't want to drop $100 on a chronograph keep your eyes peeled at the range for a fellow shooter who has one set up.
The Remington X-mark pro trigger is good and should not handicap you too much. However, in my experience it is limited to about 3lbs. Consider a Jewell if you really get into long range shooting and feel a lighter trigger would benefit you. If your trigger is pre X-mark, it is easy to adjust sub 3lb and you should take advantage.
There are alot of challeges and lessons to be learned shooting long range. The classroom is in the field sending lead waaay down range. Seems I learn something almost every time I go out to train. I find it very satisfying connecting at crazy yardage. Puts a smile on my face everytime.
All you need is several more trips to the range and some significant rounds through your rig at long ranges before you even begin know where things stand. This is the best part. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.
Welcome to the Forum. Its great to have you aboard!
Rob
I would not mess with your load or the rifle at this point. With the Bergers, both my 300WSM and 7mmRM shot best with alot of jump to the rifle lands (about .120) and both of them produce sub moa @ 1000yds. If you are shooting clover leafs at 100, your rifle and load are on the right track. If you don't want to drop $100 on a chronograph keep your eyes peeled at the range for a fellow shooter who has one set up.
The Remington X-mark pro trigger is good and should not handicap you too much. However, in my experience it is limited to about 3lbs. Consider a Jewell if you really get into long range shooting and feel a lighter trigger would benefit you. If your trigger is pre X-mark, it is easy to adjust sub 3lb and you should take advantage.
There are alot of challeges and lessons to be learned shooting long range. The classroom is in the field sending lead waaay down range. Seems I learn something almost every time I go out to train. I find it very satisfying connecting at crazy yardage. Puts a smile on my face everytime.
All you need is several more trips to the range and some significant rounds through your rig at long ranges before you even begin know where things stand. This is the best part. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.
Welcome to the Forum. Its great to have you aboard!
Rob
