RH300UM
Well-Known Member
2290fps approximately for that yardage in those atmospheric conditions
7mm Berger 180 Hybrids
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Well that takes care of it! Like I said sometimes even the best bullets fail.
RockyMtnUT
Well-Known Member
Berger hybrids for hunting? 180 7mm
Since i can't locate any 180 vld's close to me i decided to order some hybrids. There is talk regarding the 30 caliber hybrids and mixed reviews on the 7mm. Not much real world experience can be found online. I am working on loads for this elk season where all my shots are 350 to 600 yrds. I...
I agree they dont typically expand like a traditional bullet and normally fragment but can once nose comes off. I have not found one but see folks post "mushroomed" berger vlds on occasion. In any case otms not common in hunting but studied a lot in military applications. Not sure why bergers would be different. If hydraulic pressure through hollow point were required the bullet would not penetrate several inches before rupturing nor behave differently at short and long range (ie longer neck at longer range). The hp only 1/4" deep after all. Pressure decreases as bullet decelerates during penetration not increase. So does not make sense to me why would all of a sudden burst many inches in
Lou
This is from one of the excellent Barbour Creek Youtube videos. You can see how the hornady eldx starts expading sooner right away like a traditonal bullet. The berger had a shorter neck up close where yaw is high and significantly longer neck at 500 yards where bullet got more stable as traveled down range. This is typical of a yaw sensitive bullet
Lou
Lou
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elkaholic
Well-Known Member
Some do mushroom after the tip comes off and some fragment. No offense but you're wrong on the hydraulic action on the tip! Its been proven over and over. I use to make bullets and tested hundred of others including Bergers. The very popular 215 hybrid is a prime example of what Im talking about.
RH300UM
Well-Known Member
Here's the bull
Doesn't add much to the thread but here it is
Im glad a very stressful situation ended up working at the end. Congrats on a nice bull.
Some Bergers have a much larger cavity than others. That's the keyword there too- cavity. These aren't really a "hollow point" as the term is intended to represent. They're just made with an open tip copper jacket.
I've cut apart a lot of them now, and I've seen quite a few noteworthy things. The older VLDs (pre 2011) were a pretty good design and the jackets were pretty uniform in thickness. They worked quite well and there were few issues reported. I just hate how finicky VLDs can be regarding load development.
When the popularity started really growing for heavy for caliber, high BC, bullets, particularly in 7mm, Berger answered the demand. Unfortunately, issues arose from this. The extra length and then the required faster twist rate produced excessive friction and heat and the cores were melting and the bullets were coming apart in flight as a result. Around 2011, Berger "fixed" this issue by slightly thickening the jackets. This process unfortunately made them even thicker at the ogive. As a result, this made them unreliable regarding expansion at lower impact velocities (dipping below like 1800fps especially). This is why a quoted fixed.
A lot of people stopped using Bergers around this time and they started getting a lot of mixed reviews.
Well, after the introduction of the Hybrid ogives, many of those issues have gone away, including the finicky issues with load development. They've added fluting, or ribbing (whatever you want to call it), to the ogive area of the jackets and that has added a level of structural weakness that allows them to still perform well at lower impact velocities. Even the newer VLDs have this fluting/ribbing now.
Bergers, like other non-tipped similarly constructed bullets used for hunting, rely on the cavity to properly initiate and produce the deformation and expansion. The tip buckles back into this cavity upon impact and produces a wide contact surface that in turn allows for more force to act upon it and create more expansion and shedding of weight. This helps to convert energy into hydraulic force and produces massive amounts of wounding.
All that said, there can still be some unreliabilities with VLDs and some of the pointed and smaller caliber hybrids though. This is due to the ogive profiles, ultimately. The VLDs are fully secant and thus more long and narrow. This adds a degree of strength and will resist deformation and buckling. This is why I personally still do not recommend them for hunting applications where impact velocities will dip below 1800fps. Some of the longer and more narrow hybrids can have a similar issue.
One plus about many of the EOLs and pointed hybrids is that the BC is so high, the retained velocity is also high, so when they hit that 1800fps or so threshold, they're still a long ways out and most people would be hunting to distances to where the bullet would still impact at a high enough velocity as a result.
There's more to be said about all this, but I'm trying to be brief and just give a basic idea to consider is all. I'll attach a few pics with different examples for a visual reference.
Aaron
I've cut apart a lot of them now, and I've seen quite a few noteworthy things. The older VLDs (pre 2011) were a pretty good design and the jackets were pretty uniform in thickness. They worked quite well and there were few issues reported. I just hate how finicky VLDs can be regarding load development.
When the popularity started really growing for heavy for caliber, high BC, bullets, particularly in 7mm, Berger answered the demand. Unfortunately, issues arose from this. The extra length and then the required faster twist rate produced excessive friction and heat and the cores were melting and the bullets were coming apart in flight as a result. Around 2011, Berger "fixed" this issue by slightly thickening the jackets. This process unfortunately made them even thicker at the ogive. As a result, this made them unreliable regarding expansion at lower impact velocities (dipping below like 1800fps especially). This is why a quoted fixed.
A lot of people stopped using Bergers around this time and they started getting a lot of mixed reviews.
Well, after the introduction of the Hybrid ogives, many of those issues have gone away, including the finicky issues with load development. They've added fluting, or ribbing (whatever you want to call it), to the ogive area of the jackets and that has added a level of structural weakness that allows them to still perform well at lower impact velocities. Even the newer VLDs have this fluting/ribbing now.
Bergers, like other non-tipped similarly constructed bullets used for hunting, rely on the cavity to properly initiate and produce the deformation and expansion. The tip buckles back into this cavity upon impact and produces a wide contact surface that in turn allows for more force to act upon it and create more expansion and shedding of weight. This helps to convert energy into hydraulic force and produces massive amounts of wounding.
All that said, there can still be some unreliabilities with VLDs and some of the pointed and smaller caliber hybrids though. This is due to the ogive profiles, ultimately. The VLDs are fully secant and thus more long and narrow. This adds a degree of strength and will resist deformation and buckling. This is why I personally still do not recommend them for hunting applications where impact velocities will dip below 1800fps. Some of the longer and more narrow hybrids can have a similar issue.
One plus about many of the EOLs and pointed hybrids is that the BC is so high, the retained velocity is also high, so when they hit that 1800fps or so threshold, they're still a long ways out and most people would be hunting to distances to where the bullet would still impact at a high enough velocity as a result.
There's more to be said about all this, but I'm trying to be brief and just give a basic idea to consider is all. I'll attach a few pics with different examples for a visual reference.
Aaron
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@RockyMtnUT hopefully this is kinda something like you were looking for when you tagged me Saturday? Sorry I was working all weekend and it took me a bit to get to this, plus I forgot too lol.
Those darn A-10s require a lot of attention I tell ya! Lol
RH300UM
Well-Known Member
Outstanding!
Don't think I am wrong. What I sent is literally a picture perfect example of a yaw dependent bullet. Plenty of other examples from gel testing where see a longer neck on bergers at long range. Here is an antelope I shot with berger (exit side). Pretty narrow animal and bullet nearly made it through before let go. A traditional expanding bullet would have a wound starting near entrance buy probably not as wide. Didnt run much there is some risk with this type of bullet at long range and lean game in my opinion. Sort of like a depth charge. Get the depth right lights out…
Out of curiosity were you "hollow pointing" the bergers before your testing? Maybe that could explain difference
Lou
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The increased yaw at short range is what causes the nose to buckle faster. As the bullet travels further down range there is less yaw (ie resistance / surface area) once the bullet enters the animal and bullet will travel further before tip buckling. This is what I am saying by yaw dependent and classic otm bullet behavior. The barbour creek video clearly shows this. Several others as well.
The reason it apparently works pretty reliably for bergers is they intentionally keep their jackets pretty thin. I am not aware if other manufacturers do this with their otms but probably not
Lou
If the tip doesn't end up buckling straight back into the cavity, yes it tends to yaw and the resulting increased surface area there can produce the resistance required for all the effects you're describing. So it kind of just depends on the exact situation.
The stronger and more narrow ogives with resulting smaller cavities will more commonly behave like the examples you're referring to.
