7mm Berger 180 Hybrids

[Mike Matteson]

So was my elk poorly place shots? Just trying to understand your statement

So was my elk poorly place shots? Just trying to understand your statement

That what I would say. Poorly place shot. The poorly place shot could be for many reasons. Animal moved, wind, poor trigger control, bad rest, uphill or downhill angle, distances, buck fever, or all at the same time. One other is where to place the shot so it hits the lungs or heart and generally at the same time from any angles.
I have done a couple of head shots and neck shots, not many. That's getting into a smaller area, and I don't like that. Some that's all they shoot is neck area. My hats off to them.
Me I figure out where that heart is at and where to place that shot to intersect that area. I have done some poorly placed shots. Got back to far behing the liver in the gut area. I knew I hit the elk, but it didn't show it. It was in a herd. I figure him out and the next shot he went down for good. Sure enough it was poor placement of the first round.

 

[wasskeet]

If anyone's interested I have a pile of 180 VLD target and hybrid targets.

@jraulsten

 

[RockyMtnUT]

That what I would say. Poorly place shot. The poorly place shot could be for many reasons. Animal moved, wind, poor trigger control, bad rest, uphill or downhill angle, distances, buck fever, or all at the same time. One other is where to place the shot so it hits the lungs or heart and generally at the same time from any angles.
I have done a couple of head shots and neck shots, not many. That's getting into a smaller area, and I don't like that. Some that's all they shoot is neck area. My hats off to them.
Me I figure out where that heart is at and where to place that shot to intersect that area. I have done some poorly placed shots. Got back to far being the liver in the gut area. I knew I hit the elk, but it didn't show it. It was in a herd. I figure him out and the next shot he went down for good. Sure enough it was poor placement of the first round.

Thanks for the response. I'll work on shot placement next go around.
I was standing/shooting without a rest and breathing hard trying to cut off 3 bulls as they worked through the trees. The first shot entrance hole shown which ended up in the left shoulder "tumbled" and 2nd shot exit showing. It was a difficult tracking

 

[Dmagna]

I just find it funny how people are complaining about how a target bullet has poor performance on game. If you have a bad experience with the bullet, don't blame the bullet. Use a bullet that has good terminal performance, not a random outcome.

 

[RockyMtnUT]

I just find it funny how people are complaining about how a target bullet has poor performance on game. If you have a bad experience with the bullet, don't blame the bullet. Use a bullet that has good terminal performance, not a random outcome.

I don't think the op or myself are complaining. Just showing there are failures sooner or later with all. I found that in my case the one bullet failed to operate as designed and that shot placement was not the issue? I don't sweat it much since I carry two cartridges and a knife if all else fails. Have a great day.

 

[Dmagna]

I don't think the op or myself are complaining. Just showing there are failures sooner or later with all. I found that in my case the one bullet failed to operate as designed and that shot placement was not the issue? I don't sweat it much since I carry two cartridges and a knife if all else fails. Have a great day.

You say it failed to operate as designed, but Berger specifically says don't shoot critters with target bullets. So you went outside of its design and are saying it failed. Well of course, you will have random outcomes when you use a bullet like this on game.

 

[Longtine88]

I've had the exact thing happen with 215s on a bull, two penciled right through the lungs and he took off into timber.
I eventually caught a lucky break and spotted him in a small opening and put him down with a third shot (which expanded).

I've done a bunch of hillbilly expansion testing with 180 hybrids and 180 vldh at impact velocities in the 2000-2200 fps range.
I have never recovered a vldh that didn't expand well, but the results with hybrids has been very erratic.
I've seen the same thing with the 220 LRHT, I don't care what some people claim.
There is without a doubt a difference in the expansion reliability between hybrid targets, LRHTs, and the VLDH.

The 195s also behave similar to the hybrids though, with erratic expansion being pretty common even at 200 yards.
I've heard it theorized that the super long heavy for caliber bergers just don't expand as well due to instability on impact.

I've been super impressed with how fast the 180 VLDH put critters down, however I won't be using the hybrids anymore.
If anyone's interested I have a pile of 180 VLD target and hybrid targets.

I think @Broz can elaborate more on the 180 vld's. He says the same thing. He also had some unique experiences downing elk with them.

 

[RockyMtnUT]

You say it failed to operate as designed, but Berger specifically says don't shoot critters with target bullets. So you went outside of its design and are saying it failed. Well of course, you will have random outcomes when you use a bullet like this on game.

It was a target with meat. I wonder why they put a hollow point on them instead of just a FMJ?

 

[elkaholic]

You say it failed to operate as designed, but Berger specifically says don't shoot critters with target bullets. So you went outside of its design and are saying it failed. Well of course, you will have random outcomes when you use a bullet like this on game.

Did you know that Bergers old target vld became the hunting bullet with a new lot # several years back?

 

[7.62 Gunner]

For those of you who feel confident with the expansion of the Berger Targets, I have the following available. I'm into them $80/box shipped and taxed so I'd need $85/box, $75 for the two that are a different lot.
Not to derail but it sounds like quite a few guys on here are looking for some 180s. I'm not looking to sell otherwise.
PM if interested

 

[ENGUNEER]

The expansion of a bullet requires enough force to move the bullet metal around to cause expansion. Upon impact this force happens to be the pressure at the tip times the area. The pressure at the bullet tip is proportional to the density of the medium (ie, muscle tissue which approximates that of water) times the impact velocity squared. The area of a plugged hollow point is small causing very little force so not much expansion. However, if the hollow point is not plugged, the generated pressure has access to a much larger area and significant expansion can occur. This applies as long as the bullet velocity is high enough to cause the force necessary for expansion and that it continues nose-forward (ie, stable, not tumbling). The pressure generated on bullet impact can be many tens of thousands of pounds per square inch for velocities in the multiple thousand feet per second range.

 

[Lou270]

This is hard to grasp for folks but the "hp" on a berger is not there for expansion or large enough to be very effective. They are very small to get as sharp and consistent an ogive as possible for max accuracy and BC. These bullets penetrate a few inches start to yaw then due to thin jacket come apart. They do not need to tumble to come apart because the jacket is so thin the nose will bend and burst apart or in some case the bullet will expand after nose breaks away but can tumble if impact velocity is low enough like any bullet.

If the hollow point did something you would not see the bullet penetrate with a pencil wound for 3-5" before coming apart. The bullet would behave like any other hp and have near immediate start of expansion. The berger hunting bullets have thinner jackets to make sure they deform/fragment. The target bullets have thicker jackets so those who say the berger hunting bullets are the old target bullets are correct but when they changed/thickened the jacket on target bullets they kept the original very thin jacket on the hunting line because thickening the jacket decreased chance of bullet performing as expected (ie penetrate a ways then come apart doing lot of damage)

It is counter intuitive but the berger hunting bullet does not need a thick jacket to perform as advertised. The very hard nose will help the bullet penetrate a few inches, even through bone before the bullet destabilizes in flesh and comes apart. A soft Point or hollow point/tipped bullet will start expanding and be most fully expanded a couple inches in where a berger hasnt even started yet. You are less likely to get a surface blow up with berger but more likely to get a pencil through type failure if something goes wrong. A traditional bullet then typically has some feature to stop or slow down expansion, a berger does not. Making the hp bigger MAY help at long range at the cost of making the bullet more fragile on closer shots since you are now taking a very thin core/soft bullet and adding a hollow point

Lou

 

[haisardao]

I wonder what the impact velocity was for the bullet pass 600 yards, it's my understanding that failures to expand can occur in general bellow 2000 FPS with many bullets, not just Bergers. As previously mentioned, bullet failure will happen eventuality to most of us, I've had Barnes TTSX failed to expand at 200 yards from a 7mm-08 in a whitetail doe, second shot kill her, first shot looked like a needle hole.

 

[elkaholic]

This is hard to grasp for folks but the "hp" on a berger is not there for expansion or large enough to be very effective. They are very small to get as sharp and consistent an ogive as possible for max accuracy and BC. These bullets penetrate a few inches start to yaw then due to thin jacket come apart. They do not need to tumble to come apart because the jacket is so thin the nose will bend and burst apart or in some case the bullet will expand after nose breaks away but can tumble if impact velocity is low enough like any bullet.

If the hollow point did something you would not see the bullet penetrate with a pencil wound for 3-5" before coming apart. The bullet would behave like any other hp and have near immediate start of expansion. The berger hunting bullets have thinner jackets to make sure they deform/fragment. The target bullets have thicker jackets so those who say the berger hunting bullets are the old target bullets are correct but when they changed/thickened the jacket on target bullets they kept the original very thin jacket on the hunting line because thickening the jacket decreased chance of bullet performing as expected (ie penetrate a ways then come apart doing lot of damage)

It is counter intuitive but the berger hunting bullet does not need a thick jacket to perform as advertised. The very hard nose will help the bullet penetrate a few inches, even through bone before the bullet destabilizes in flesh and comes apart. A soft Point or hollow point/tipped bullet will start expanding and be most fully expanded a couple inches in where a berger hasnt even started yet. You are less likely to get a surface blow up with berger but more likely to get a pencil through type failure if something goes wrong. A traditional bullet then typically has some feature to stop or slow down expansion, a berger does not. Making the hp bigger MAY help at long range at the cost of making the bullet more fragile on closer shots since you are now taking a very thin core/soft bullet and adding a hollow point

Lou

Most Bergers don't EXPAND like a lead tip or ballistic tip bullet. Ive tested dozens of them and they blow the tip clear off right where it intersects the lead by hydraulic pressure through the hollow point. Ive picked up dozens of the tips and they're all about 1/4" or so long and bellowed out at the bottom. So, when they aren't open they usually act like a solid and thats why results are so mixed, They MAY tumble and come apart, but thats very inconsistent.