375VM2 from Viers

[Deleted member 71114]

Folks

Just curious with 40 plus 375 VM2s built and everyone always referring to them as a base line to other wildcats how come you don't hear much discussion on them as far as preformance pros and cons.


Cheers

 

[Joel Russo]

I'm pretty sure that most of them headed out of the country. Dave exported quite a few of the rifles he built. I haven't talked to him in quite some time, not sure what's going on with him. Hope he's well.

 

[THEIS]

everyone always referring to them as a base line to other wildcats

Cheers

Hello,

This would be the first time I think I have read that the 375VM2 being considered the "base line" to other wildcats.....I think the "base line" has generally been the 408CT, more recently it seems the "base line" has moved to the 375CT.

The reason you see the "CT" cartridges discussed more than others, especially when comparing other wildcats performance abilities is the availability of brass.

Readily available brass will either make or break a wildcat cartridge in regards to gaining popularity aka industry acceptance or remaining a mere "wildcat" cartridge (even if its performance is better than performance of cartridge that has readily available brass).

Contrary to popular belief .... not all ELR shooters desire to "cut this, neck that, fire form this, swage that, etc etc" Most rather to just handle normal reloading task so they can get on trigger more than getting on press handle.

And weapons manufacturers (not custom builders) typically will not put a cartridge into their available chambers list until brass is readily available. Just look how long the 408CT and 375CT have been out WITH readily available brass yet you do not see many production weapons manufacturers offering it.

THEIS

 

[Deleted member 71114]

THEIS

I would have to agree with you, it should of been more of a comparison when discussing the 375s many times it comes up when the different wildcats based off the 375cal and usually it's the standard Cheytac, VM2 and Dave's and Kirby's Snipetac. Now a lot of talk is of Eds, Mitchell's and Swamps.

I believe even in the past you have referenced back to these as well.

Thats all fine but the interesting question is, you can google 375VM2 and find very little to almost no conversations today from owners of the 375VM2 and with 40 plus of these built.
I can only find one shooter that commented and made a few videos of his 375VM2 other then Dave, so I ask why does the comparison even hold any marit? And does this continue to happen with other wildcat rounds being being possibly oversold for what they can in the real world preform and the effect of this to those who fall into this sales trap? Note not all wildcats fall into this category but some?

Just a few thoughts and questions

See you folks at the 2 mile

Cheers
Oneshot

 

[THEIS]

Hello,

Those questions/comments is essentially like putting Pandoras Box in the crosshairs because any real conversation in regards to your questions/comments will be seen be seen as "Bashing" by some, "Negative" by some, "Truth" by some, "Siding" with this vs that by some, etc etc etc.

My personal and professional opinion is quiet complex in regards to your questions/comments.

I see the root cause as "wildcat-itus".
"Widcat-itus" can literally choke the life out of a new cartridge from ever becoming "industry accepted".
Some wildcatters make the conscious effort to catch wildcat-itus while others unintentionally catch it.

Scenario #1...Lets take APM for example. Kirby purposely and intentionally caught wildcat-itus because he, himself wanted to be the "only" gun builder that could build a client a rifle chambered in his APMs. The upside to that for him is he gets to claim that, the downside to him is weapons built numbers will always remain low.

Scenario #2...Lets take the 338NM for example. Jimmy purposely and intentionally made sure he did NOT catch wildcat-itus. He designed the cartridge, tested the cartridge, had others test it under NDA, had commercial brass lined up, and had commercial ammunition lined up pretty much before anyone ever knew about the 338NM and look at his results of that today. JSOC just changed their caliber requirements for their new switch barrel weapon system from 308, 300WM and 338LM to 308, 300NM and 338NM.

Scenario #3...Lets take the "Lethal" for example. Mitch seems to be following the same path as Kirby; in wanting to utilize his "wildcat" as the foundation of his gun building.

Scenario #4...Lets take the 408CT for example. The original cheytac and associates group of companies designed the cartridge, designed the projectile, built the test rifle called the Prometheus, tested the 408CT for about a year then determined they needed another weapons platform. They then went to Bill at EDM. New weapons platforms were built and more testing was done including radar testing at Yuma way before this industry even used the term "doppler radar". They took that data and had a ballistics program built. ALL that before anyone really even knew about the new "wildcat". Their results pretty much speak for themselves too, same as Jimmy with NM.

If you check the BATFE manufacturing records for "ELR" gun builders you will see the quantity is pretty minuscule in the USA.

And the ones with the highest numbers do not have a "proprietary" cartridge. They DO have a cartridge that has readily available brass and ammunition though...

IMO the "ELR" industry is sort of the opposite from rest of firearms industry. Typically it is the USA civilian gun market that supports the typical firearms manufacturers. The USA and International military market is not the backbone of the typical firearms industry.
BUT BUT BUT....
ELR industry is driven and supported by military markets more than civilian markets..especially the International markets. And before everyone says otherwise..just ponder and research these numbers for examples:
2006 Turkey purchased 275 cheytac 408s from USA mfg
2007 Poland purchased 342 cheytac 408s from USA mfg
2009 Bulgaria purchased 186 cheytac 408s from USA mfg
2010 Russia FSB purchased 410 cheytac 408s from Russian mfg
etc etc
2017 Czech Rep purchasing 30 DT HTI in 375 cheytac
2017 Russian Alpha group purchasing 300 cheytac 375s from Russian mfg
2017 French RAID purchasing 25 cheytac 375s from Switzerland mfg
2017 Turkey purchasing 450 cheytac 375s from Switzerland mfg

In 2009 Israel created a sub-sniper specialty under their hard target interdiction sniper specialty that is specifically designed for 2500m+ engagements.
In 2010 Bahrain created a sniper specialty geared specifically for 3000m+ engagements.

My personal conclusion is any "wildcatter" that is purposely catching wildcat-itus will always have a wildcat..A wildcatter that is going after the Military/Governmental usage will have a industry accepted cartridge.

THEIS

 

[Deleted member 46119]

Well said.

 

[HARPERC]

Interesting military perspective numbers. I haven't heard much along those lines!

 

[THEIS]

Interesting military perspective numbers. I haven't heard much along those lines!

Hello,

When you need some "light" reading material you should submit a FOIA to the DoS asking for information in regards specifically to FMS transactions

(We) as US shooting community have a tendency to think (We) as in our US Government are leading the pack so to speak in the realm of "Best Equipment" and that the rest of world bases their usage off of what our usage is.
For about 98% of Governmental equipment utilization I would agree with that, BUT specifically in the ELR&HTI realm of utilization (We) as in US shooting community AND US Government are falling behind.

Our US DoD cannot even make decision on implementing 338 caliber sniper rifles while countries like China have more of their AMR-2 rifles chambered in 408CT than our US DoD has in ALL sniper rifles no matter the caliber.

Our US "Small Unit" military divisions are utilizing weapon systems for ELR&HTI missions but not at the scale some other countries are utilizing them. The reason behind this is a vast number of reasons that would take weeks to discuss but I cannot help think 1 of the reasons is that (We) as US Shooting community seem to always be looking for half a step better than the other guy instead of joining together as ELR shooting community. So when these "small units" start researching new ELR equipment they find no common census as to what does what and how easily it can be gotten. Instead they constantly find "this vs that" when in reality both "this and that" combined do not have 20k rounds in T&E.

IMO any "new" cartridge is still in RDT&E stage until that "new" cartridge designer has atleast 25k rounds out of weapon system(s) in which they can show absolute positive data on that "new" cartridges capabilities. UNLESS that "new" cartridge designer only has intentions of the design staying a wildcat and/or that designer has the desire to be the "only" one you can get that cartridge from.
Even then you run the risk of the "hype" fading out for several different reasons such as individual early users of the system not being able to get the data you got as the designer..case in point the 416B....look how many years it took individuals to achieve the MV that Barrett advertised. That is why you MUST have lots of rounds through guns before release

THEIS

 

[ELR Researcher]

THEIS:

The only Swiss firearms manufacturer I am familiar with is Brugger & Thomet . Is that the company you are referring to?

Thanks.

 

[THEIS]

THEIS:

The only Swiss firearms manufacturer I am familiar with is Brugger & Thomet . Is that the company you are referring to?

Thanks.

Hello,

There are a few more Switzerland firearms manufacturers than them. I left out the name in my post for a reason
Also Brugger and Thomet changed their name to B&T awhile back since Thomet is no longer associated with the company. Actually Henrich Thomet is on the US DoS watch list for potential illegal arms trafficking since 2006 for reasons classified by CIA.

THEIS

 

[ELR Researcher]

Hello,

There are a few more Switzerland firearms manufacturers than them. I left out the name in my post for a reason
Also Brugger and Thomet changed their name to B&T awhile back since Thomet is no longer associated with the company. Actually Henrich Thomet is on the US DoS watch list for potential illegal arms trafficking since 2006 for reasons classified by CIA.

THEIS

Thanks for the heads-up on the name change - I've had it the "old" way for over five years - until a few minutes ago when I changed it to B&T AG.

 

[mitch260]

Hello,

Those questions/comments is essentially like putting Pandoras Box in the crosshairs because any real conversation in regards to your questions/comments will be seen be seen as "Bashing" by some, "Negative" by some, "Truth" by some, "Siding" with this vs that by some, etc etc etc.

My personal and professional opinion is quiet complex in regards to your questions/comments.

I see the root cause as "wildcat-itus".
"Widcat-itus" can literally choke the life out of a new cartridge from ever becoming "industry accepted".
Some wildcatters make the conscious effort to catch wildcat-itus while others unintentionally catch it.

Scenario #1...Lets take APM for example. Kirby purposely and intentionally caught wildcat-itus because he, himself wanted to be the "only" gun builder that could build a client a rifle chambered in his APMs. The upside to that for him is he gets to claim that, the downside to him is weapons built numbers will always remain low.

Scenario #2...Lets take the 338NM for example. Jimmy purposely and intentionally made sure he did NOT catch wildcat-itus. He designed the cartridge, tested the cartridge, had others test it under NDA, had commercial brass lined up, and had commercial ammunition lined up pretty much before anyone ever knew about the 338NM and look at his results of that today. JSOC just changed their caliber requirements for their new switch barrel weapon system from 308, 300WM and 338LM to 308, 300NM and 338NM.

Scenario #3...Lets take the "Lethal" for example. Mitch seems to be following the same path as Kirby; in wanting to utilize his "wildcat" as the foundation of his gun building.

Scenario #4...Lets take the 408CT for example. The original cheytac and associates group of companies designed the cartridge, designed the projectile, built the test rifle called the Prometheus, tested the 408CT for about a year then determined they needed another weapons platform. They then went to Bill at EDM. New weapons platforms were built and more testing was done including radar testing at Yuma way before this industry even used the term "doppler radar". They took that data and had a ballistics program built. ALL that before anyone really even knew about the new "wildcat". Their results pretty much speak for themselves too, same as Jimmy with NM.

If you check the BATFE manufacturing records for "ELR" gun builders you will see the quantity is pretty minuscule in the USA.

And the ones with the highest numbers do not have a "proprietary" cartridge. They DO have a cartridge that has readily available brass and ammunition though...

IMO the "ELR" industry is sort of the opposite from rest of firearms industry. Typically it is the USA civilian gun market that supports the typical firearms manufacturers. The USA and International military market is not the backbone of the typical firearms industry.
BUT BUT BUT....
ELR industry is driven and supported by military markets more than civilian markets..especially the International markets. And before everyone says otherwise..just ponder and research these numbers for examples:
2006 Turkey purchased 275 cheytac 408s from USA mfg
2007 Poland purchased 342 cheytac 408s from USA mfg
2009 Bulgaria purchased 186 cheytac 408s from USA mfg
2010 Russia FSB purchased 410 cheytac 408s from Russian mfg
etc etc
2017 Czech Rep purchasing 30 DT HTI in 375 cheytac
2017 Russian Alpha group purchasing 300 cheytac 375s from Russian mfg
2017 French RAID purchasing 25 cheytac 375s from Switzerland mfg
2017 Turkey purchasing 450 cheytac 375s from Switzerland mfg

In 2009 Israel created a sub-sniper specialty under their hard target interdiction sniper specialty that is specifically designed for 2500m+ engagements.
In 2010 Bahrain created a sniper specialty geared specifically for 3000m+ engagements.

My personal conclusion is any "wildcatter" that is purposely catching wildcat-itus will always have a wildcat..A wildcatter that is going after the Military/Governmental usage will have a industry accepted cartridge.

THEIS

THEIS, I agree with much of what you said. I would like to add my perspective. The desicsion to keep the Lethal Magnum wasn't out of what I would consider wildcat-itus. All things considered, there are many reasons why the LM, Merc, Hubble Express, VM2 would make poor choices from a military perspecitve. Barrel life, magazine issues, etc. The 375 Chey-Tac feeds great from a magazine, offers reasonable barrel life, and the performance will get operators out the extremes of their rifle's precision capabilities. The LM was designed specifically for me to use in the KO2M match, since I couldn't get anything like it to build myself at the time. I had dreamed of owning a VM2. I decided to keep it with in LPA as more of a novalty than anything, it offers great performance for ELR competition or for a long range hunting rifle. I never really had the intention for it to go main stream, I recognized the limited market it would service, and it meant more to me if I had a hand in every rifle the wore that designation. I fully agree though that "wildcat-itus" will keep a good design from going mainstream, if going mainstream is the goal. I am fully aware that the LM won't go mainstream, and the only reason it is the foundation of my rifle building is because of the limited time I have to dedicate to it, as LPA grows (slowly on purpose) I fully expect the LM to be a small percentage of what we do.

I've had a number of conversaitons with Kirby, and I don't think he suffers from what I would consider "wildcat-itus". He's a one man shop that builds custom rifles, and doesn't really have plans of making his stuff go mainstream. He just loves this stuff and wants to keep his name on his work.

I think wildcat-itus can be easily seen in the competetiveness some of these guys have around their cartridges. I love seeing new cartridge designs and guys building these beasts of rifles, its really unfortunate when these conversations are abrasive for no good reason other than ego. I got into this industry reading Kirby's and Dave's posts, their work gave me this addiciton! Lol

In my opinion, "wildcat-itus" would apply to guys that want to keep their wildcat proprietary because they think it is going to explode and be the next best thing while they ride it to the top. And I fully agree with you, that isn't going to happen. I'll admit there were a few times I started to think this way, but I quickly brought myself back out of it to focus on much more important projects and aspects of my career.