25-06 long range troubles

[stu837]

Hello everyone. I have been browsing this forum for years and have begun to start shooting successfully at longer range as a result. Thanks to everyone for all the information that you share!

That being said, I had the chance to shoot out to 955 yards recently and found something troubling. But first, here are some relevant specifics.

Rifle:
Savage Long Action
CBI/Criterion Barrel - 1:10" twist

Load:
Remington brass
CCI BR2 primers
47.8 gr IMR 4350
Nosler 100 gr Ballistic Tips
OAL: 3.206
Velocity: Estimated 2955 fps (based on velocity calibration option on G7 ballistics software and my drop info at 500 yards)
Holds 1/2 moa to 500 yards all day





I have been able to engage targets out to 750 yards effectively now that I have a rangefinder and wind meter. Up to this point, my drop data has been fairly accurate and the bullet holes on target have been clean and round. However, I went to 955 yards and found that my shots were 1.5 mils lower than my software expected and the bullet holes were oblong.



After seeing this, I'm assuming that my bullets have lost stability and are now wobbling/tumbling. Has anyone experienced something like this? Is this a bullet issue or a barrel twist issue? I hate to increase my velocity as none of my hotter loads perform as well as this one.

I've been tempted to get some 115 gr bergers and work up a load. If anyone has any feedback on this bullet's long range stability in a 25-06 I'd love to hear it. I'd also like to hear from someone who has some good experience with it's effects on game.

 

[Jud96]

Hello everyone. I have been browsing this forum for years and have begun to start shooting successfully at longer range as a result. Thanks to everyone for all the information that you share!

That being said, I had the chance to shoot out to 955 yards recently and found something troubling. But first, here are some relevant specifics.

Rifle:
Savage Long Action
CBI/Criterion Barrel - 1:10" twist

Load:
Remington brass
CCI BR2 primers
47.8 gr IMR 4350
Nosler 100 gr Ballistic Tips
OAL: 3.206
Velocity: Estimated 2955 fps (based on velocity calibration option on G7 ballistics software and my drop info at 500 yards)
Holds 1/2 moa to 500 yards all day

View attachment 42890

View attachment 42891

I have been able to engage targets out to 750 yards effectively now that I have a rangefinder and wind meter. Up to this point, my drop data has been fairly accurate and the bullet holes on target have been clean and round. However, I went to 955 yards and found that my shots were 1.5 mils lower than my software expected and the bullet holes were oblong.

View attachment 42892

After seeing this, I'm assuming that my bullets have lost stability and are now wobbling/tumbling. Has anyone experienced something like this? Is this a bullet issue or a barrel twist issue? I hate to increase my velocity as none of my hotter loads perform as well as this one.

I've been tempted to get some 115 gr bergers and work up a load. If anyone has any feedback on this bullet's long range stability in a 25-06 I'd love to hear it. I'd also like to hear from someone who has some good experience with it's effects on game.

You could be getting oblong holes because the bullet is coming it at such an extreme angle, they are hitting the paper on such a steep degree that they are leaving uneven holes. How much drop does that load have at 955yds?

 

[stu837]

The ballistics software called for 9.6 mils, but i had to dial to 11.0 mils to get on target. The oblong shapes vary in all directions at random from shot to shot as well.

 

[Jud96]

The ballistics software called for 9.6 mils, but i had to dial to 11.0 mils to get on target. The oblong shapes vary in all directions at random from shot to shot as well.

That is a lot of drop! You should be doing a lot better than 2995fps with 100s in a .25-06! You are shooting at like .250 Savage velocities, you should be in upwards of 3300+ fps with a .25-06, so I would tinker with your load. With the recipe you are shooting, you are petered out at that range so it could just be how your bullets are flying at such low speeds that is causing the oblong tears.

 

[stu837]

yep, she's definitely slow. I started from the bottom and worked my way up and that was the best load I found. Works for me too, since I don't want to rebarrel any sooner than I have to or buy more brass for a while.

 

[RT2506]

Don't take this as some smarta## statement. Think about this rationally. If you are only starting that little 100 gr bullet 2995 fps by the time it gets to 995 yards you could probably throw the bullet faster than it will be going and it will be coming down so steeply that any little bit of wind will make it move around like a knuckle ball. I have been shooting the 25-06 for about 25 years and is my favorite deer caliber. In case your intending to use it as a hunting round I can tell you that no matter what bullet you use on deer size game it just looses too much velocity to be expand the bullets effectively on deer size game past 600 yards. If you are just target shooting you need all the velocity you can get and for 995 yards I would go to the 115 Berger VLD and get it going 3100 to 3200 fps which is attainable with at least a 24" barrel and better with 26" with Retumbo or RL22. Just for kicks bump your load of IMR 4350 up to 52 grs with that 100 BT and adjust your bullet seating for best accuracy and see what it does a longer ranges. This is a standard 25-06 load like 52 grs H4831 with 115/17 gr bullets is. Have fun.

 

[orch]

Hey there,

I'd have to agree we th the rest of the guys here, that 100gr bullet is going pretty slow...so much so I'd wonder if your bullet is going Trans-sonic and is losing stability as it drops from above the sound barrier to below. That would probably be why u are seeing bullets tumbling... This depends on your atmospherics... Where I am, about 1000ft above sea level and minus 25 Celsius today my ballistic data has the nosler 100 gr starting to go subsonic at around 960 yards at yor speed, in the summer if the temp was +20 c it would start going subsonic around 1030.... Some bullets seem to be sensitive to instability going transonic, some don't... I'm not even sure which ones are, but it seems the 100gr ballistic tips from your load are... To over come it I'd say try bumping up the speed or go to a different bullet like you mentioned... I have had great results with the 115gr berger in my 2506 AI....I shoot them out to 1000 yards all the time and they still ring the gong pretty good. I have killed deer out to 600 yards regularly (actually killed one at 995 with it in one shot but that was really pushing it and I was very lucky to get a clean humane kill and didn't have to track a wounded deer) and have taken coyotes out to 800 yards with it, I've found it very consistent in my gun.

Orch

 

[snox801]

I would also give the 115 bt nosler a shot. My 257 really likes them. Either way that is a very long shot for a 25 Cal.

 

[frequent misser]

I would also give the 115 bt nosler a shot. My 257 really likes them. Either way that is a very long shot for a 25 Cal.

I have yet to see a 25/06 or a 257 Roy not shoot that bullet well.
In the 06 a max load of Imr4350 has been a go to for accuracy in 4 different rifles. That usually comes round 49-50 gr but work up to that.

 

[stu837]

Hey there,

I'd have to agree we th the rest of the guys here, that 100gr bullet is going pretty slow...so much so I'd wonder if your bullet is going Trans-sonic and is losing stability as it drops from above the sound barrier to below. That would probably be why u are seeing bullets tumbling... This depends on your atmospherics... Where I am, about 1000ft above sea level and minus 25 Celsius today my ballistic data has the nosler 100 gr starting to go subsonic at around 960 yards at yor speed, in the summer if the temp was +20 c it would start going subsonic around 1030.... Some bullets seem to be sensitive to instability going transonic, some don't... I'm not even sure which ones are, but it seems the 100gr ballistic tips from your load are... To over come it I'd say try bumping up the speed or go to a different bullet like you mentioned... I have had great results with the 115gr berger in my 2506 AI....I shoot them out to 1000 yards all the time and they still ring the gong pretty good. I have killed deer out to 600 yards regularly (actually killed one at 995 with it in one shot but that was really pushing it and I was very lucky to get a clean humane kill and didn't have to track a wounded deer) and have taken coyotes out to 800 yards with it, I've found it very consistent in my gun.

Orch

Orch, that has been my suspicion. I've read that once a bullet hits the 1350 fps they start entering said "Trans-sonic" range and start experiencing turbulence. Sounds like you fellas have given me some good motivation to make the leap the 115 berger and drive it fairly fast. Software says it won't hit 1350 fps until about 925 yards.

Anyone else experienced trouble once their bullets start going "Trans-sonic?"

 

[stu837]

Orch,
Have you taken deer at close range (say 50-150 yards) with the Berger 115? If so, how did that work out for you?

 

[snox801]

I can't help you with the bergers because I just started load work for them in my wby. But as for the nosler, they work great at short range. This year I shot a buck in Kansas at a whopping 62 yards and bullet worked perfect. I was worried about failure because I'm way above max speed nosler says. I also got the chance at two doe in Michigan, one at 487 and the other at 458. Both exited and looked like a violent crime scene with all the blood. So I know they work well. That being said am always looking to improve so my next tests are with Berger. If the Berger gets the same accuracy and performance as the nosler it will get the vote with the higher BC.

 

[stu837]

Hey folks,

Thanks for all the replies. I just found an interesting article on the subject at hand that I found to be pretty applicable and interesting.

Practical Thoughts About Transonic Bullet Stability and Accuracy « Daily Bulletin

I just started load development with the 115 bergers and it looks like my rifle is liking them at 51.5-52.0gr of IMR-4350. According to the Hodgdon website this should be putting them at 3000-3050fps. If that's true, even given my compromised BC due to inadequate spin rate at judged by the berger calculator, i should might be able to get to 900 before hitting the transonic (1350fps) area.

Thanks for all the replies, and if I have a chance to test at 900+ yards I'll update the thread!