243ai issues

[jaybic]

Hello,

Just wondering if any of you that have in the past or currently load for a 243ai have had trouble getting the round to shoot or know it to be a particularly fussy round to load for. I have had/am having considerable trouble with mine and am beginning to wonder not the rifle itself, which is a Stiller Predator/Hart 10 twist tube, timney trigger, HS precision stock and last smithed by Hart themselves, but rather my choice of rounds.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[coyotekiller82]

What loads are you using?? Relaods? Factory 243 (to fireform into AI)?

If it's reloads, what powder, bullet, brass, primer?

If factory, what are the particulars?

Also, are the scope rings bases etc tight?

 

[Dano1]

My .243AI is a re-chambered .243 Win Factory Barrel on a Ruger m77-mkII. It's a light weight rifle with a 22" bbl and a 1-9.25" Twist. It shoots great my handloads great, but seems to suffer when shooting fire form loads, especially light weight bullets.

I get the best accuracy from 100g Sierra Gamekings with H414 powder and also have a great load for a 85g Barnes TSX using Hodgdon Hybrid 100V. Their MV is 3140FPS out of a 22"bbl.

I don't recall the MV of the Sierras though....

This is meant for a 300yd deer rifle for my boys, to teach them on. It has taken quite a few Muleys so far.

let me know if I can help.

Dan

 

[jaybic]

I am trying to get the 87 vmax to shoot over H4350. It was supposed to be my 800 yard capable, coyote tournament rifle for use in Western ND/Montana and be fast, flat, and accurate. The brass is Winchester, Primers are BR2s. Brass has already been formed to the ai chamber. None of the fire forming loads seemed to do very well and it seems that this has carried over as AI brass. what I do know is that a 4000.00 plus rifle has chewed its way thru 11 or so powders, 6 or 7 bullets of various weights and brands, a few different brands of primers, seating depth tests, ladder tests, OCW tests, two different scopes(Leupy VX III 4x14 and 4x17 ffp Vortex HS T LR, different shooters, and a whole bunch of other issues that I will leave out for now, and is being outshot by a couple stock Savage rifles(a model 16WW and a model 10 predator as well as my Krieger tubed 700 in .308. In my mind, what I built was essentially a repeater bench gun with sling swivels on it and while expecting it to shoot dots might be a bit lofty, I don't think I am asking too much for 1/2 MOA rather than the 1-1.5 moa I am currently seeing waaay to much of....I have 5 shot groups from a box stock Savage 22-250 that completely embarrass this rifle...and I could have bought 5 of them for this kind money. As far as the scope and rings being tight, they are. It is a 20 MOA rail that is pinned to the action with TPS rings tightened with a torque wrench to specs.....

I do have one question. Should the bedding job extend an inch or so in front of the recoil lug or should I be able to slide a dollar bill all the way to the lug?

I am pretty much beside myself....

 

[AZShooter]

IMO the rifle is the issue. You would have hit upon some combination that would have given you acceptable groups by now.

I would see if I could find someone with a borescope. I would look at the throat to see if it is straight. Look at the entire bore for any anomalies. Also look at the crown.

You could remove all the bedding that is making contact with the barrel if you choose. My 1000 yd benchrest friends don't ever bed their barrels just the actions. I have also begun to do this so I can switch barrels at a later date without having to rebed. I cannot say if that will help or not.

I would take it apart and look for areas of concern. I often forget all the things on my list so I keep it in my documents. Here is the list:

Check front action screw hole for epoxy if it is a blind hole This can have the screw bottoming out before it snugs up the stock

Action screw too long is bottoming out in blind hole (same idea as above)

Forward screw for front scope ring base too long touching threads of barrel shank so front base is loose

Poor crown, optimal way is to check with bore scope

Action screw holes in stock too small, drill larger so sides of action screw won't touch

Bolt handle touching stock

Mag box must not bind

Recoil lug making early contact in bottom of bedding (rocking action)

Trigger group must not touch stock

Trigger guard must not touch trigger

Uneven bedding--- tightening one action screw to see if the action pulls up at other end.

Action screws improperly torqued

Barrel having adequate clearance where it is supposed to be floated

Clean bore

I am sure there are more things to consider. Perhaps some other posters can share ideas.

 

[coyotekiller82]

Well, from the sounds of it...your rifle is the culprit. I would be sending it back to Hart to fix on their dime.

After all, a guy should expect a company to test fire the rifle to check on accuracy before it was shipped, and if it's not less than 1 MOA for a rifle with the parts listed, they should fix it before sending it to a paying customer.

Hope you get it all sorted!!

 

[jaybic]

I think a version of the entire sordid affair is in order. This may take a bit and leave a few jaws on the floor. It did mine but this is the story of my first ever full blown custom rifle.

The gun was originally smithed by a guy in Minneapolis with(as near as I can tell) a solid reputation as per one of the site moderators at Benchrest Central, as a benchrest grade gunsmith. When I first got it, I went out to fireform 50 brand new WW cases. I ran a handful of different loads trying in vain to do a little load testing while fireforming because I had heard that if something shoots well as a fireforming load, often times it well get even better once the brass is formed. It seemed about every 5th shot or so was a misfire and none of the loads shot well. Later I noticed that it was backing out primers, up to 19/1000 of an inch!!! Headspace was too long, no crush fit on the brass and the chamber had a ring around it about 5/8ths of an inch up from the case head. He wanted to blame the brass...ect..ect but once I pointed out the ring in he chamber he realized it was on him.

I gave him the chance to fix it with out being a jerk because folks can make mistakes, so he cut it off and rechambered with a brand new 243ai reamer(I was told) and I lost 2 inches of barrel(started out at 26 inches). I got in back and the misfires and popped primers stopped but accuracy was still relatively dismal. After calls to Stiller and Hart, both of whom were awesome to work with, I sent the rifle to Hart where the original crown, which was not correct(bent rifling at the crown???) was fixed and the chamber was cut off and set back/rechambered yet again because of 2 different rings in the chamber that should not be there and this is with less that 300 rounds thru the gun and nothing shooting well yet. My shiny new 26 inch Hart tube is now 22 inches long. Hart Barrels was awesome and did not charge me a dime to repair the poor machine work done by the original smith and I cannot say enough good things about their customers service. The rifle was shot groups that were a 3 shot and a five shot group using WW brass and 85gr Sierra HPBT gamekings, which measure .290 and .600 respectively. Then it was sent off to have a chip in the stock repaired and new paint which Hart took care of with no hesitation(yet another example of stellar service), reassembled and sent back to me with the target.

I have tried but cannot get that load or any other to shoot under 1 inch with ANY level of consistency and I have tried a 65/75/87 Vmax, 70NBT, Sierra 70gr HPBTM, 85GK, 85 Varminter, and the 87 VLD. Powers tried RL15/17/19 IMR 4350, 4831, 4064,Hodgdon,Varget/H4895/H4350/H4831/H4831sc/H414/CFE/Superformance, Winchester 760/ CCI/WW and Fed Primers...........

I have had a couple ok 3 shot groups, one of which all went thru the same hole, so I shot 5 and the group was 1.5 inches...go figure I guess.....All shooting has been off a solid Caldwell Rock BR front rest and a benchrest style rear bag, flags(surveyors ribbon) and all. The stock Savage model 10 with the Hornady Zombiemax factory rounds is embarrassing it....

I am no expert nor the best shot in the world by any means but I have been shooting and reloading for better than 30 years now and this one has me stumped...I even went and had my eyes checked(20/20 in my shooting eye)...

In the end, I paid the original guy the smithing costs, lost 4 inches of tube due to poor workmanship, 200 worth of brass, including 100 brand new once fired Lapua cases, that will not chamber, made five 180 mile round trips(3 of which should have been unnecessary had it been done right the first time) untold money trying to get a messed up gun to shoot, time, gas and hours of frustration. After I told him the deal, I said I would eat it all if he agreed to replace the barrel so I paid for it, sent him the bill of 440.00 as per his instructions. Today I got a check back for 240.00 and a letter in which he states that he thinks this is "fair"....It was originally put together by him at the end of March/beginning of April and yet it is now October and it is not yet shooting well enough to go on my first coyote adventure of the year to North Dakota.

Anyway, sorry to be so long winded but I do not want Hart to get any grief that does not belong to them and this all started with the gun butcher in MSP so if you want the name of a good gunsmith in Minneapolis, I have a suggestion of who NOT to take it to. PM me for details and do NOT make the same mistake I did and take it to "that fella in Bloomington".

comments, advice, I told ya so's, insight, snide remarks, and good lawyers names and numbers are all welcome.

thanks and to all a good day,

Jamie

 

[AZShooter]

Jaybic,

I am sorry to hear of your situation. What a mess.

I have a some more questions. By any chance did the original gunsmith blueprint the Stiller action? I sure hope he didn't touch it. The reason I say this is Hart threaded and rechambered the barrel with their reamer and it still wouldn't shoot. Who made the two barrels?

I am certain by now you would have found a load so it has to be something wrong with the rifle. Did the original gunsmith install the second barrel?

The moderator at Benchrest Central recommended this gunsmith? I would be talking to the moderator. Perhaps they have some clout they can use on your behalf. I would try to find out if there are others that have had problems with this gunsmith.

I do not know how to approach this from a lawsuit standpoint but perhaps the Attorney General of Minnesota might be a good start. If others have also come forth then they might help you. Not so sure it would work for one person. I tried that with MPI the stock maker years ago and got nowhere. Both Arizona and Oregon Attorney's General wouldn't help me UNLESS more than one person had issues.

Awaiting the answer to those questions. Maybe we can isolate your accuracy issue.

 

[TOM H]

Jaybic, I've got Hart barrel 243AI with 1/10 twist barrel @ 27" and pretty accurate same with my 243 which has a Kreiger barrel and I used two different gunsmith.

It's hard for me to understand that Hart cut new chamber using old barrel and you still can't get it to shoot and that doesn't speak well for Hart. To me if Hart wasn't going to charge you for chamber etc why not buy new barrel.

Something is missing.

 

[coyotekiller82]

Jaybic,

That sheds a whole bunch more light on your situation.

That's a terrible story, I can't even imagine the frustration you've encountered with your first custom rifle.

I'm glad to hear that Hart tried their best to make it right even though the issue was caused by incorrect practices that the smith used.

Here's to hoping you get all this cleared up and your rifle gets fixed so that it shoots the way it should!

Good luck!

 

[jaybic]

Just so I am not thinking crazy, what kind of accuracy is realistic based on the rifle I built? I don't expect it to shoot dots necessarily but I would think putting 5 under a dime fairly regularly is not asking the world. Looking around a bit, for the money I have tied up, I could have bought a proven used bench gun(or 5-7 Savages) for less and it would **** near guarantee me 1/2 MOA....


Are my expectations too high? Heck, I am having trouble getting 5 to go under a 50 cent piece...

 

[AZShooter]

Once again was the stiller action blueprinted by that gunsmith? Who installed and chambered the second barrel?

If the action was blueprinted then you could send it back to Stiller to see if it was taken out of spec. Then you would have some hard facts against the "benchrest grade " gunsmith.

And yes you should be able to get three into a ragged hole. Shooting five in a row with a 243 AI is also possible but not practical as that would advance the throat erosion.

The issue is machining, bedding or loads. Trying to isolate the cause.

 

[jaybic]

It is still wearing the first barrel. I had it scheduled to go back to Hart after I quit coyote hunting for the year(typically about end of Feb but Mr, Hart told me to send it back now and he is gonna give it another whack at figuring it out. It shipped today.

The other barrel I purchased is also from Hart(not yet installed) after the original gunsmith agreed to pay for it because he had 2 chances to get it right already and that didn't happen. I ordered it and paid for it and when it arrived I forwarded a copy of the invoice to the original smith and he sent me 240.00 rather that the 440.00 for the new barrel he originally agreed to. Sounds like he will only pay full price if I give him the old tube so he can use it on another rifle for someone else(this is how he explained it in the letter with the check).

I am going to call him and ask him if he in any way altered the action and I have the blueprint dimensions that Stiller includes with the action which I will forward to Hart so he will know if the action has been altered.

As far as bedding goes, the rifle was bedded and shot and that is when it seemed to be coming around. Then it was sent for painting and had the paint baked on, reassembled and sent to me but was not shot. Is it possible that the process of baking the paint on may have altered the bedding job? The throat on this tube seems short as well. If I seat an 87gr vmax to the Hornandy COAL, it would just be kissing the rifling and that means there is a lot of bullet seated deep in the case. Is it possible that in order to keep the bullet out of the rifling, I have to seat it so deep that it is inside the case so far as to negatively affect accuracy? Just pitching ideas......


anyway, thanks for your time, wisdom and advice. It helps to hear from other voices of experience.

have a good one,

Jamie

 

[AZShooter]

I hope that Hart will solve your issue. Be sure to mention to them the short throat. I am certain they have their own reamer so maybe the throat configuration will be different.

I have a friend that had Hart do a few rebarrel jobs on his rifles and he speaks highly of their work.

Will Hart be bore scoping the barrel? I wonder if the throat is cut concentric to the bore. A bore scope will show that.

As for the paint...did the barrel channel get paint too? Maybe the gap is just a bit smaller so the barrel is making contact with the stock. I have had rifles that seemed fine with enough clearance only to show they needed more when shot under field conditions with a bi-pod. A bit more floating and inaccuracy solved. Worth looking into.

Will Hart be firing the rifle? Did you send them your components and dies?

Please let us know what happens by posting on this thread in the future. There is always something we can learn from issues like yours.