I hate to be a skeptic but recently talked to a gentleman about the short life of a .243 barrel and he suggested trying cryogenics. I kinda laughed, which is usually what I do as a defense mechanism when I don't understand something. He had no experience with gun barrels but after listening to his argument or justification for this process it actually made me think about it which brings me to this post....Does anyone have any experience or hard data on this process extending the accurate life of a barrel? With calibers like the .243 being such barrel burners I can see how, if this works, it would definitely be something to look into providing it was cost effective. Love to hear what anyone with experience has to say.
.243 Barrel Life and Cryogenics
- Thread starter Ghost7
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BUSTINDOGS
Well-Known Member
I don't think cryo treating a barrel will help it last longer cryo generally makes the machining process eaiser/more consistent.
Nitride treating will make your barrel last longer.
Maybe if you had the blank cyro treated before you start any machining on it then nitride it after. But most barrel manufacturers already have a very good method for making consistent barrels.
I know benelli cryo treats their barrels.
Nitride treating will make your barrel last longer.
Maybe if you had the blank cyro treated before you start any machining on it then nitride it after. But most barrel manufacturers already have a very good method for making consistent barrels.
I know benelli cryo treats their barrels.
7, in 2010 I got a new in the box Vanguard chambered in .257 Wby for next to nothing. My son's friend who builds offroad race cars took the new unfired barrel in with some of his parts to Cryogenics International in Scottsdale. With practically a free rifle and free cryo I finished modding the rifle and have shot about 250 rounds. I'd guess a .257 Wby would fit your "barrel burner" description. I had a smith friend bore scope it last Nov and he said it looks great and the throat is fine. Not many barrelmakers use cryo but have never read where it will harm velocity, accuracy or barrel life although some say it doesn't help. My barrel is easy to clean, but so are my Mark V non-cryoed barrels. Last I checked it was $70 for treating there.
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
+1 on the nitride......
Darkker
Well-Known Member
No hard data I've ever seen shows you should do it.
Read plenty of articles that show there CAN be a bennefit, but never that there IS.
Read plenty of articles that show there CAN be a bennefit, but never that there IS.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
+1 bustindogs
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
My first answer to anybody asking this question would be to give the data to a metallurgical engineer with the alloy number.
Of course he's going to be somewhat blunt, and probably make you a little mad at yourself for even asking the question. The term "cryogenics" is not new. Came into serious use during WWII, but now is kinda left in the shadows. Yes we still do it, but not all the time. Yet we now use it with non ferritic alloys now days. Still it has it's pluses (which I'll tell you about later). Believe it or not it was developed as a fast way to cold stabilize aluminum. They started doing this in freezers that would hold the parts (engine blocks for aircraft) for two to three weeks. Then somebody came up with a LOX and even later nitrogen that could be done in 36 hours.
When you heat treat a piece of metal (anykind), you are faced with a way to quench the heat treat (or to stop the heat). Yes you can do this via air, and with very low carbon steels this works well (think 8620 in a normalizing process). This does everything the cold process does, but with heat. Of course you can't do this with a hardened piece of metal. Why can't I normalize a hard piece of steel? (in our case a prehardened piece of steel) Because the heat process will draw the RC number back (soften it). With this in mind we will simply toss the steel in the deep freezer (nothing like the one in your house) and let it set there for a month or two. Otherwise we do the cryogenics process. I for one still think the slower process is better, but we also don't usually have 90 days lead time!
What do we want to get (results) out of cold stabilizing or cryogenics? I want to see the parts machine easier, and most of all change less during the process. The steel (in this case) is quenched via oil or water (I cannot by contract discuss the process in depth). In a perfect medium we want to quench the metal instantly all the way into the very center. Forget that idea!!! From the moment I dump that chuck of iron into the tank the whole world changers for the iron. Gets hard and develops stress points, but even six months later it's still going thru the quench process (bet a few here didn't know that!), and is actually changing three years later. Just they hand God dealt us. So now we have a piece of steel with some "retained martensite" (a form of granular structure that's not so good). How do I get around it? Best thing I can do is to dump it in the deep freeze (Cryo being preferred as it a much faster process, and time is everything in the quench process). The cryo process really helps the granular structure form correctly. Won't make a barrel last a shot longer, but it will do something. It will change less from the time it's cold to when it's heated.
To take this further; lets look at the stainless steel products that are so in vogue these days. 416 SS seems tobe everybody's favorite. Machines well, and can be bought prehard. (important). Barrel makers have their own special 416 recipe. Too many have an extra shot of Sulphur added, and that's not so good. They do this to aid machining and gain an increased tool life at your expense. Still remember that as the barrel heats up and then cools; it lets go of some items retained in the alloy. In this case it's Sulphur. Making the surface somewhat porous. The real bad side of 400 series steel is a little ditty called retained martensite. Now some guys are doing stainless in some exotic alloys that are quite a bit better. Think 15/5, 17ph4 re-arc met, and if your brave 18** numbers. These are well known to be hard on tooling and machinery. Still machined everyday by folks that know their business. With these you can be assured they have a cryo setup close by, and may use it as much as three times during machine processes. Makes it easier as well a much more stable. Yet all this will still not gain you one more shot.
gary
Of course he's going to be somewhat blunt, and probably make you a little mad at yourself for even asking the question. The term "cryogenics" is not new. Came into serious use during WWII, but now is kinda left in the shadows. Yes we still do it, but not all the time. Yet we now use it with non ferritic alloys now days. Still it has it's pluses (which I'll tell you about later). Believe it or not it was developed as a fast way to cold stabilize aluminum. They started doing this in freezers that would hold the parts (engine blocks for aircraft) for two to three weeks. Then somebody came up with a LOX and even later nitrogen that could be done in 36 hours.
When you heat treat a piece of metal (anykind), you are faced with a way to quench the heat treat (or to stop the heat). Yes you can do this via air, and with very low carbon steels this works well (think 8620 in a normalizing process). This does everything the cold process does, but with heat. Of course you can't do this with a hardened piece of metal. Why can't I normalize a hard piece of steel? (in our case a prehardened piece of steel) Because the heat process will draw the RC number back (soften it). With this in mind we will simply toss the steel in the deep freezer (nothing like the one in your house) and let it set there for a month or two. Otherwise we do the cryogenics process. I for one still think the slower process is better, but we also don't usually have 90 days lead time!
What do we want to get (results) out of cold stabilizing or cryogenics? I want to see the parts machine easier, and most of all change less during the process. The steel (in this case) is quenched via oil or water (I cannot by contract discuss the process in depth). In a perfect medium we want to quench the metal instantly all the way into the very center. Forget that idea!!! From the moment I dump that chuck of iron into the tank the whole world changers for the iron. Gets hard and develops stress points, but even six months later it's still going thru the quench process (bet a few here didn't know that!), and is actually changing three years later. Just they hand God dealt us. So now we have a piece of steel with some "retained martensite" (a form of granular structure that's not so good). How do I get around it? Best thing I can do is to dump it in the deep freeze (Cryo being preferred as it a much faster process, and time is everything in the quench process). The cryo process really helps the granular structure form correctly. Won't make a barrel last a shot longer, but it will do something. It will change less from the time it's cold to when it's heated.
To take this further; lets look at the stainless steel products that are so in vogue these days. 416 SS seems tobe everybody's favorite. Machines well, and can be bought prehard. (important). Barrel makers have their own special 416 recipe. Too many have an extra shot of Sulphur added, and that's not so good. They do this to aid machining and gain an increased tool life at your expense. Still remember that as the barrel heats up and then cools; it lets go of some items retained in the alloy. In this case it's Sulphur. Making the surface somewhat porous. The real bad side of 400 series steel is a little ditty called retained martensite. Now some guys are doing stainless in some exotic alloys that are quite a bit better. Think 15/5, 17ph4 re-arc met, and if your brave 18** numbers. These are well known to be hard on tooling and machinery. Still machined everyday by folks that know their business. With these you can be assured they have a cryo setup close by, and may use it as much as three times during machine processes. Makes it easier as well a much more stable. Yet all this will still not gain you one more shot.
gary
BUSTINDOGS
Well-Known Member
Might be on to something with the cyro to help the material during temp change, this should make for a barrel with same cold bore poi as a hot gun... Or at least better than what is considered good now?
You wouldn't believe how temp changes metal untill you are holding plus/minus .0001 on 300 series stainless and checking it with a cmm. I could only imagine how much the bore and groove change on a rifle going from 50 degrees to 100 or better.
You wouldn't believe how temp changes metal untill you are holding plus/minus .0001 on 300 series stainless and checking it with a cmm. I could only imagine how much the bore and groove change on a rifle going from 50 degrees to 100 or better.
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
Gary.....that was pretty informative for a dummy like me!
Schnyd112
Well-Known Member
When I was in jr high school, late 90's, the big thing was to cryo our bats. It was pretty cheap, but was promised to give them more "pop". They were aluminum alloy, hollow, and every bit as expensive as a barrel. I cannot say it ever helped, my talent was with the glove, but guys did it.
I always liked wooden bats, that may have just been preference as an infielder and a guy that made a life with singles, bunts and working the count.
I always liked wooden bats, that may have just been preference as an infielder and a guy that made a life with singles, bunts and working the count.
Gary.....that was pretty informative for a dummy like me!
+1, thanks for a technical enlightenment.
catamountsierra
Well-Known Member
I certainly won't claim to be an expert, but I was always under the impression that barrel life was determined to some extent by throat erosion due to the rifling being exposed to essentially a blast furnace. High temperatures and pressures basically melting the exposed surfaces of the rifling. My thoughts were always towards using an alloy with a higher melting point. Anyone every try making barrels out of titanium? I know it would be cost prohibitive, but other than that?
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
Heat is a factor but my understanding is it has to be resistant to abrasion as much as anything. Even though stainless is softer than CM, it is more abrasion resistant so there are different ways to measure how tough a barrel is......Rich
