223 or 22-250

[mrb1982]

I need am everyday type gun. I would like a 223 or 22-250. Gonna try to shoot some factory stiff that won't break the bank to start with. Then my kids can use it when they get older. Looking for 400yds on coyote sized game at the largest. Thinking 50 gr bullet range. Gonna be an sps varmint that over time I can upgrade stocks, triggers, things like that on over time and then do some loading also. Any advice appreciated

 

[benchracer]

I am a big fan of the 22-250, but I think the .223 is a better choice for your stated purposes. With what is currently available for the .223, it is an extremely versatile cartridge. Hornady Superformance ammo with the 53 VMAX takes the .223 very near factory 22-250/55 grain bullet ballistics. You can find everything from 40 grain varmint bullets to 77 grain match loads in factory .223 ammo. If you load your own, you can use lead bullets and either shotgun powders or Trailboss to produce rimfire equivalent loads that are more accurate and less expensive than most current 22LR ammo (if you can even find any).

A big issue with the various .22 centerfires is factory barrel twist. Most 22-250 factory rifles have a 14 twist, which severely restricts which bullets will shoot well from them. The best .224 bullets, that have been recently introduced, won't work reliably in a 14 twist. Some manufacturers offer 22-250's in a 12 twist, which is better, but still rules out a lot of excellent .224 bullets. Only Savage offers one with a 9 twist, which allows you to use some of the heavier match bullets. For most 22-250's, though, anything other than a 14 twist requires a custom barrel.

The .223 is less affected by this. There are many .223 rifles with 7, 8, or 9 twist barrels right out of the box, which allow the use of a much wider variety of ammo. The .223's mild velocities also tend to make lighter bullets less finicky when shot from a tight twist vs the much faster 22-250, which has been known to blow up lighter bullets when fired from tight twist barrels.

The Remington SPS Varmint in .223 has a 12 twist, which means it will work very well with the Hornady 53 VMAX, but rules out use of match ammo with the heavier bullets.

IMO, there are better choices out there for about the same money as the SPS, that will be more versatile rifles because they are offered with faster twists, and because they will need less in the way of upgrades:

Savage offers fast twist .223 and 22-250 models in their 11 and 12 series rifles. Pick your features and prices. They come with an accutrigger that will give you a trigger that won't need to be replaced to obtain a decent trigger pull. Depending on the model, you might want to upgrade the stock, but finding a good replacement at reasonable prices won't be difficult. Another big advantage of the Savage rifles is their modular nature, which allows the user to perform a LOT of different upgrades with simple hand tools. A lot can be done with these rifles without going to a gunsmith.

The Ruger American is an inexpensive rifle that, so far, is developing a very good reputation for out-of-the-box accuracy. It is being offered in sporter and predator models. The 22-250 is offered with a 10 twist, while the .223 is offered in an 8 twist. The American has a trigger similar to the Savage Accutrigger and has a barrel that is retained in a similar manner to a Savage, allowing for future barrel swaps without a gunsmith. The big weakness of the American seems to be the flimsy factory stock. Boyd's is offering laminated stocks that would cure that weakness quite handily.

Another option is the Mossberg MVP. It, too, is offered in a variety of models, all of which sport a 9 twist barrel, chambered in 5.56 NATO (which will digest surplus ammo and .223 ammo), in various lengths. Among these are varmint and predator models. The MVP takes AR mags, has an Accutrigger style trigger, a Savage style barrel retention nut and, like the Savage, is constructed in a modular manner that will form an excellent basis for a future build. The predator and varmint models come with a good quality laminate stock that will not need to be upgraded. The varmint model can be had from the factory with a muzzle threaded for a suppressor. If you desire to load rounds longer than mag length, you can fit an AR mag with a single shot follower, which will allow for single feeding.

I opted for the Mossberg MVP Varmint. It cost me $529 and was field ready after mounting a scope. It is good to go as is and won't need to be upgraded. There are a lot of excellent choices out there in .223 at very reasonable prices. Good luck with whatever you choose.

 

[mrb1982]

Well all that about sums it up. At least I have all the info in one spot on this one. Thanks for all your info.

I notice on the website that you can specify a 9, 10, or 12 twist. If I go with a 9, can I still shoot the lighter bullets and have better luck with the heavier ones too???? How heavy could I reliably go with a 9???

Not sure how I feel about the magazine. I really don't want a big mag hanging down. I notice on the website I can specify length of pull, overall length, and a 6 or 11 rd mag if I want. If I were to go with a 6, will that keep the mag from hanging out of it like that????

Can I shoot the superformance 55gr out of these efficiently?

What kind of accuracy do you get with yours?

How light can the trigger go down to?

Sorry for all the questions but you seem to know a lot about this specific gun so your help would be appreciated.

 

[benchracer]

Well all that about sums it up. At least I have all the info in one spot on this one. Thanks for all your info.

I notice on the website that you can specify a 9, 10, or 12 twist. If I go with a 9, can I still shoot the lighter bullets and have better luck with the heavier ones too???? How heavy could I reliably go with a 9???

Not sure how I feel about the magazine. I really don't want a big mag hanging down. I notice on the website I can specify length of pull, overall length, and a 6 or 11 rd mag if I want. If I were to go with a 6, will that keep the mag from hanging out of it like that????

Can I shoot the superformance 55gr out of these efficiently?

What kind of accuracy do you get with yours?

How light can the trigger go down to?

Sorry for all the questions but you seem to know a lot about this specific gun so your help would be appreciated.

The 9 twist won't give you any problems with light bullets. I tried rounds loaded with 53 VMAX, 68 BTHP, 69 SMK, 75 BTHP, and 75 AMAX with no issues. My shooting partner was shooting 55 grain milsurp ball ammo from about a half dozen different manufacturers with no issues.

Supposedly, the 9 twist is good up to the 75 BTHP, but isn't fast enough for the longer 75 AMAX. My rifle stabilized the 75 AMAX just fine, but I haven't had a chance to tune loads for it, so I don't know what kind of accuracy it will ultimately produce with them.

I believe the mag in the pictures is the 10 rounder. My shooting partner had a 5 round mag from a Remington 7615 pump rifle that fit our Mossbergs very nicely. It still protrudes, but doesn't hang down as far as the 10 rounder.

I only tried two factory loads from my rifle, both Superformance (53 VMAX and 75 BTHP). My rifle wasn't overly fond of either one. I have both of those component bullets, though, and I am betting I can get them to shoot when I have the time to tune some loads for it. I would bet that I can better factory velocities, too.

Taking a SWAG, I loaded some 68 and 69 grain match bullets to mag length and shot them for test. Without any tuning, my rifle REALLY wanted to shoot using these bullets. Both loads produced 10 shot groups consisting of 5 or 6 shots in one ragged hole surrounded by fliers, all coming in under 1" @ 100 yards. I don't think it will take much to turn out tack driving loads with those bullets.

I don't have many rounds downrange, yet, and haven't had the chance to do any serious accuracy testing with factory ammo or handloads, so it's a bit early to tell what kind of overall accuracy I will ultimately get. But, after observing how both my and my partner's MVP Varmint rifles shot with ammo of varying quality, I think they will end up shooting a wide variety of ammo pretty well.

The trigger is adjustable from 2 to 6 pounds, according to Mossberg. My trigger felt very light. I didn't measure the trigger pull, so I don't know what the actual pull weight is. But, I was very happy with it straight from the box. My partner's rifle was the same way. Neither one of us felt the need to mess with the triggers.

 

[mrb1982]

Very interesting. Seems this rifle would be something that, with the ability to shoot a little bigger bullets, wouldn't be a terrible starter hunting rifle for my kids someday down the road. Hard to say. I would have to think real hard about it I guess. Looks like it could be a pretty descent gun though.

 

[benchracer]

I will be doing some load development next month. Using what I know to be the fired case capacity in my rifle, and loading to 5.56 NATO pressures, QL tells me I should be able to best factory ballistics by a fair margin. I will be testing 50 VMAX, 52 AMAX, 53 VMAX, 55 SBK, 69 SMK, 75 Hornady BTHP, and 75 AMAX. Will pass on my results...

 

[snox801]

Spot on about the 223. I have both like both, but for what you want 223 all the way. I cannot get close to my 22-250 speed from my 223, but it still turns varmints inside out so not sure how much more they could be exploded. Plus the bonus of the 223 is cheap ammo. The premium 55gr superformance ammo for both is close enough in cost to not matter. Now when it comes to shooting paper is where you can get a savings in ammo. I shoot lots of pmc at my steel for fun accurate enough and at about 7 bucks a box is easy on the wallet.
As for growing with kids its a great gun for that as long as the bullet is built for the game meant to be taken. I have killed hundreds of pigs and a few very large Michigan whitetail with my 223 shooting 62gr nosler partitions, also had great luck with the fusions. Just don't try varmint bullets for big game I have seen them work and seen them fail.

 

[mrb1982]

So lets take then converstation to a little different angle just to think about it a little bit in the situation I am thinking about.

Lets say I don't want a heavy barreled gun. I kind of want a sporter barreled gun with nothing fancy for a scope on it.

I have a Simmons 3-10x44 in my closet just itching to go on something.

I have an eye on SPS or SPS stainless, sporter, not varmint barrel.

In this situation, I am not htinking about something my kids could shoot later. Just kind of a throw around gun for the pickup.

I notice in the stores that there are some varieties of 22-250 ammo that are fairly cheap too. Not quite as cheap as the 223, but pretty fair considering.

Gonna do a little coyote calling with it, maybe lets say 400yd shooting max, very max.

I am thinking I could have a descent budget throw around rifle that I could always find a takeoff short action wood stock or something to throw on. Maybe do a little loading down the road after I have some brass collected.

For the purposes I am trying to attain, I don't really need/want to shoot anything more than 55 grains I don't think.

I would actlaly really like a 243 with light bullets just for kicks and grins. But finding a factory with the right twist to do that seems easier said than done.

I know the SPS doesn't get a lot of respect because of the stock, but it might just be what fits the bill and fills a nitch in my collection.

 

[benchracer]

So lets take then converstation to a little different angle just to think about it a little bit in the situation I am thinking about.

Lets say I don't want a heavy barreled gun. I kind of want a sporter barreled gun with nothing fancy for a scope on it.

I have a Simmons 3-10x44 in my closet just itching to go on something.

I have an eye on SPS or SPS stainless, sporter, not varmint barrel.

In this situation, I am not htinking about something my kids could shoot later. Just kind of a throw around gun for the pickup.

I notice in the stores that there are some varieties of 22-250 ammo that are fairly cheap too. Not quite as cheap as the 223, but pretty fair considering.

Gonna do a little coyote calling with it, maybe lets say 400yd shooting max, very max.

I am thinking I could have a descent budget throw around rifle that I could always find a takeoff short action wood stock or something to throw on. Maybe do a little loading down the road after I have some brass collected.

For the purposes I am trying to attain, I don't really need/want to shoot anything more than 55 grains I don't think.

I would actlaly really like a 243 with light bullets just for kicks and grins. But finding a factory with the right twist to do that seems easier said than done.

I know the SPS doesn't get a lot of respect because of the stock, but it might just be what fits the bill and fills a nitch in my collection.

Where I think the SPS makes the most sense is if you are considering a build of some kind down the road. In that case, you have a solid action as a base and something serviceable to shoot while you save the $ and/or collect your desired parts.

If not considering a build, I think the Ruger American deserves a hard look. They come with more up-to-date twist rates and can be had at attractive prices. You could buy one of those and put it in a Boyd's stock for about the same as it would cost you to buy the SPS. I don't think you would have to do anything else to it.

I shot an American in .308 awhile back that really impressed me. It shot very accurately even with cheap milsurp ammo. The American can be had in 22-250 with a 10 twist, which can easily handle the 69 grain match bullets. It can also be had in a 9 twist .243 or an 8 twist 6.5 Creedmoor. Those are some pretty tempting options in a budget rifle.

 

[mrb1982]

Out of curiosity, what kind of accuracy do you generally expect from average factory ammo.

 

[benchracer]

That depends a lot on the chambering, IME. Generally speaking, I tend to have low expectations of factory ammo. In 22-250, most factory ammo I have tried hovered around an inch @ 100 yards. In .223/5.56 NATO, I have seen a lot of milsurp ammo shoot between 1.5" and 2.0" @ 100 yards. The sporting and match ammo I have seen tends to do much better.

A similar dynamic seems to be in place with .308/7.62 NATO (That is why I was so impressed that the Ruger American was shooting well with milsurp ammo. Even my 700 VS wouldn't turn in performance like that shooting milsurp).

On the other end of the spectrum, I have had Hornady factory loads in .243 and 6.5x55 that produced sub-.5" groups @ 100 yards.

With factory ammo, I think a lot of it is luck of the draw. Achieving good accuracy with factory ammo is simply a matter of finding something your rifle likes. In that respect, probability favors the common chamberings that have a wide variety of factory ammo available. Even so, it can take a lot of experimentation before finding the right factory load. It is not hard to spend more money experimenting with factory ammo than one would spend for a basic reloading setup.

As an aside, over the years I have gravitated toward using basic Winchester White Box ammo as a performance baseline for a given rifle. Sometimes there are factory loads that shoot better, but I have found it to be a pretty reliable gauge of overall potential. I also measure my own handloads against it in terms of cost, velocity, and accuracy.

 

[mrb1982]

Yeah I have a friend that has reloading equipment so I have started to gravitate toward using his stuff ever since I got started shooting long range. Now that I see how much it can help, and how much more accurate you can make your gun for essentially the same cost or less of factory ammo in most cases, I do it for pretty much all my guns. I have a 270 win that I have had since I was 14 and always shot factory ammo in it. Well, I decided to bed it this winter and I am just starting some preliminary load work up on it. Be kinda cool to see my long time first deer rifle I ever owned come up with some good ammo and see what it can really do. Probably make me wish I never moved on from it.

On that note, in the back of my mind, the 243 has always seemed like be best way to go for me on this coyote thing. the 22-250 has that stigma of course, and the 223 is nice because it is cheap. But living in the west, you gotta have somethign that can buck the wind in my opinion. I might be best served to go with a sporter barrel 243, load some 87gr bullets, and get after it.

I have thought about trying to shoot some of the lighter 243 bullets. I will use remington as an example because I tend to lean toward them. They are the most comfortable to me and I already own a couple of them.. My question would be, for lets say a 65-75 grain bullet, would I be able to shoot something that light out of a 9.25 twist made to shoot the bullets closer to 100gr?

 

[benchracer]

I have thought about trying to shoot some of the lighter 243 bullets. I will use remington as an example because I tend to lean toward them. They are the most comfortable to me and I already own a couple of them.. My question would be, for lets say a 65-75 grain bullet, would I be able to shoot something that light out of a 9.25 twist made to shoot the bullets closer to 100gr?

In .243, Remington is one of the manufacturers that offer a sensible twist rate. A 9.25 twist isn't going to cause you problems with light bullets and should take you up to the 105's without issue. In general, overspinning a bullet doesn't hurt you unless enough velocity is involved to make the bullet come apart in flight. A 9.25 twist isn't fast enough to make that happen.

 

[mrb1982]

Cool. Thanks for all your help. I really appreciate all your advice and information.