Neck tension

Mikecr said:

Why?
Because of load development with soft brass, having low neck tension?
Because of over-working brass through excess sizing?

Let me suggest minimal sizing and mild process annealing every 30-50 reloading cycles.
You will never get more consistent than this.

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30-50 reloading cycles? (And how does "mild process annealing" differ from regular annealing?) The brass will have work hardened and neck split / case head separated long before you can reload the same piece of brass even the min 30 times you mention (probably by less than 20 actually), not to mention the primer pockets will be so loose you could push new primers in with your thumb.

As for minimal sizing, I full length size enough to push the shoulder back .002", and since I anneal each time I don't care if I reduce the neck more than it needs, and don't really need a bushing, since the .002" turning mandrel will push the ID of the now nicely softened brass out to where it needs to be.

I just re-read your post again, and can only assume I'm missing something, so please let me know what caliber and brass you can reload 50 times and then return to new ductility with only "mild process annealing." Thanks.

Mikecr said:

Why?
Because of load development with soft brass, having low neck tension?
Because of over-working brass through excess sizing?

Let me suggest minimal sizing and mild process annealing every 30-50 reloading cycles.
You will never get more consistent than this.

Click to expand...

Well, I've been annealing for over 25yrs. Blowtorch to AMP Annealer.
It's always been every time. Benchrest to F Open.
The AMP Annealing maker says to do it every time. The top F Class shooters follow that. The whole idea is to return the brass to its virgin molecular state which then produces consistency and extended brass life. Makes sense if you believe that. I am not a metal expert so if you want a scientific answer, go to the AMP website and they explain it all in deep detail. LOL, competition shooters throw their brass away after no more than 10 reloading cycles. There is a reason for that, and it's not bc they are rich and can afford new brass.

I see process annealing as stress relieving (aka regular annealing I guess). It's not full annealing.
Full annealing kills brass for our use.

I can get unlimited life ,at SAAMI max, out of any modern cartridge (legacy 30deg or + shoulders) and my chamber and sizing plan.
My 26WSSM Imp brass has over 80 reloads on it, and will never change.
My 6BR, and 223R, which are older than I am by now, have never needed replacing.
Outside of an experiment with Norma brass (which is a soft alloy), plus a terrible NEF chamber once, I have never killed brass.

When you're plagued with splitting necks, opening pockets, extraction issues, head separations, constant trimming, constantly annealing, High SD etc,, your plan sucks. Deer hunter, F-class participant, or youtube star makes no difference to it.
You may think that so much neck sizing, and countering that with annealing, works, but it's just excess effort for nothing better.

Well, I guess we are all just wrong.
Question, why do you anneal after 30 - 50 cycles.

I'd like to know what reloading procedure can keep primer pockets tight other than using mild loads and good brass.

I swore I wouldn't jump into this barrel of hedgehogs, but here I go. On a benchrest rifle I anneal, use a LE Wilson full length bushing die. I use a 21st Century hydro press with a PSI gauge, and an in-line LE Wilson seating die. I want to seat every round to 40psi. I take a wild *** educated guess at the correct bushing. I resize it, run a Erik Cortina non-lube mandrel thru it (also a guess), and inside chamfer. I then seat this dummy round and see what PSI it seats to. If it's too light go to the next smaller bushing. Inertia hammer the bullet out and use it for a fouler. Typically every successively smaller bushing will add about 10psi. I do the same process with my hunting rifle but shoot for 60psi. The no-lube Cortina mandrels are magic by the way.

Mikecr said:

I see process annealing as stress relieving (aka regular annealing I guess). It's not full annealing.
Full annealing kills brass for our use.

I can get unlimited life ,at SAAMI max, out of any modern cartridge (legacy 30deg or + shoulders) and my chamber and sizing plan.
My 26WSSM Imp brass has over 80 reloads on it, and will never change.
My 6BR, and 223R, which are older than I am by now, have never needed replacing.
Outside of an experiment with Norma brass (which is a soft alloy), plus a terrible NEF chamber once, I have never killed brass.

When you're plagued with splitting necks, opening pockets, extraction issues, head separations, constant trimming, constantly annealing, High SD etc,, your plan sucks. Deer hunter, F-class participant, or youtube star makes no difference to it.
You may think that so much neck sizing, and countering that with annealing, works, but it's just excess effort for nothing better.

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Sorry, I'm glad that works for you, but I'm calling BS. You reload the same case that many times, and not only are your primer pockets complete toast, but your necks are work hardened to the consistency of steel. How you could even hope to get concentric bullet seating and consistent neck tension while not annealing after 50 plus reloads, especially if shooting F-Class is beyond me, and you're not only saying that you're never doing it but that our "plan sucks" for doing so?

And please tell me the difference between the "effective" partial "stress" annealing, and "full" annealing that "kills brass?" I anneal the neck and shoulder only.

I'd also like to hear how you avoid trimming your brass to extinction after 80 plus reloads.

If this was April 1 I'd say "you got me!" But for now I'm just saying no way. Just seating a LR primer into a case 80 times calls your entire post into question.

If I'm wrong, please educate me and I'm willing to learn, but this post kind of reminds me of one in another forum I'm on where we were discussing removing the dashes and airbags and ETAC systems in our cars. The general consensus is that even though the Ford manual states it takes 6-8 hours, it can be done in 3 or 4, but one guy chimed up and said he can do it in 40 minutes, because "he made a special tool!" But he can't show us the tool, or describe it, he just has double-secret magical knowledge. Okay, I guess.

robert rex said:

I swore I wouldn't jump into this barrel of hedgehogs, but here I go. On a benchrest rifle I anneal, use a LE Wilson full length bushing die. I use a 21st Century hydro press with a PSI gauge, and an in-line LE Wilson seating die. I want to seat every round to 40psi. I take a wild *** educated guess at the correct bushing. I resize it, run a Erik Cortina non-lube mandrel thru it (also a guess), and inside chamfer. I then seat this dummy round and see what PSI it seats to. If it's too light go to the next smaller bushing. Inertia hammer the bullet out and use it for a fouler. Typically every successively smaller bushing will add about 10psi. I do the same process with my hunting rifle but shoot for 60psi. The no-lube Cortina mandrels are magic by the way.

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Sinclair, 21st Century, and APW also make TiNi coated no-lube mandrels. And I got two 21st Century black nitride expander turning mandrels that are even a step up, they are "hard as carbide and slick as graphite" according to the product description. Not necessary to lube them, but dunk them in some Redding dry lube and they slide through the case necks effortlessly.

Sounds like a nice setup you have. The only reason I would use an arbor press and inline seater over the Co-ax would be to add that cool PSI gauge you can get with the hydro press. I thought about it to have another level of consistency verification, but am getting excellent concentricity using mandrels and standard Redding Premium sizing and seating dies in a Co-ax. I don't see how an inline seating die could do better, even though it clearly is a better designed mousetrap.

Even with Inline Fab QD mounts everywhere I'm out of space anyway, with three presses and a brass prep bench, so I'm now limiting my purchases based on where they would sit, LOL!

P.S. I'd try your exact process with no bushings at all, just the mandrel, and I'm willing to bet you'd get the same results, especially considering you're annealing each time.

In re-reading your post I'm missing something important, but all your bushing work is undone when you use the mandrel, which is set to say .001 or .002" under bullet diameter. I don't see how going to a smaller bushing changes anything, the mandrel will blow it back out, so why bother? The only purpose the bushing is serving that I can see is to not overwork the brass when FL sizing.

No one else on three forums has been able to address this one point, so I'm hoping you'll educate me, thanks!

Mikecr said:

I see process annealing as stress relieving (aka regular annealing I guess). It's not full annealing.
Full annealing kills brass for our use.

I can get unlimited life ,at SAAMI max, out of any modern cartridge (legacy 30deg or + shoulders) and my chamber and sizing plan.
My 26WSSM Imp brass has over 80 reloads on it, and will never change.
My 6BR, and 223R, which are older than I am by now, have never needed replacing.
Outside of an experiment with Norma brass (which is a soft alloy), plus a terrible NEF chamber once, I have never killed brass.

When you're plagued with splitting necks, opening pockets, extraction issues, head separations, constant trimming, constantly annealing, High SD etc,, your plan sucks. Deer hunter, F-class participant, or youtube star makes no difference to it.
You may think that so much neck sizing, and countering that with annealing, works, but it's just excess effort for nothing better.

Click to expand...

I would have to say, you using low powder loads or well withing specks in powder loads. Now I get 10 to 12 firing with belted mag. I would loose them in 3 firing by fully resizing the case with case base separation. I changed to neck sizing and stop my sizing die just shoulder to the neck. Sometime I would have to full length size them during that time, but not much. The only reason they didn't last longer was the primer pocket would get to loose. Those loads were something like 5+grs over manual max manual spec. Back then I would only anneal one time. So the neck splitting stopped. I sure you know that the brass gets harder each time it gets worked. That's is without question. So your neck tension would increase, because the brass gets harder each time.

I wish I could offer something more...maybe even wise... but I can't get past the constant neck tension my wife gives me!

In my short time aboard the LRHF I can positively identify 3 individuals that surely stay frustrated and beleaguered with the rest of us beginners.
However I feel it's very generous of them to demonstrate how wrong we are, in general, and expel effort to keep us on the right path.

My AMP will last a lot longer annealing at 30 shot intervals. Save a lot of ️

Svashtar said:

Sinclair, 21st Century, and APW also make TiNi coated no-lube mandrels. And I got two 21st Century black nitride expander turning mandrels that are even a step up, they are "hard as carbide and slick as graphite" according to the product description. Not necessary to lube them, but dunk them in some Redding dry lube and they slide through the case necks effortlessly.

Sounds like a nice setup you have. The only reason I would use an arbor press and inline seater over the Co-ax would be to add that cool PSI gauge you can get with the hydro press. I thought about it to have another level of consistency verification, but am getting excellent concentricity using mandrels and standard Redding Premium sizing and seating dies in a Co-ax. I don't see how an inline seating die could do better, even though it clearly is a better designed mousetrap.

Even with Inline Fab QD mounts everywhere I'm out of space anyway, with three presses and a brass prep bench, so I'm now limiting my purchases based on where they would sit, LOL!

P.S. I'd try your exact process with no bushings at all, just the mandrel, and I'm willing to bet you'd get the same results, especially considering you're annealing each time.

In re-reading your post I'm missing something important, but all your bushing work is undone when you use the mandrel, which is set to say .001 or .002" under bullet diameter. I don't see how going to a smaller bushing changes anything, the mandrel will blow it back out, so why bother? The only purpose the bushing is serving that I can see is to not overwork the brass when FL sizing.

No one else on three forums has been able to address this one point, so I'm hoping you'll educate me, thanks!

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Yeah the smaller bushing thing was a little confusing. I might try that on my AMP press. I do know if you go a larger bushing, say .003 under, the final neck tension is less and more inconsistent even with using the .002 under bullet size mandrel. The .001 difference just isn't enough for the mandrel to to consistently size correctly.
I'd be interested to know when he goes smaller bushing and gets more seating pressure, if that causes an identifiable adverse change in group size. Many believe higher neck tension doesn't matter.

Again, neck tension is NOT governed by interference numbers…it is the HARDNESS of said brass and alloy content.
To those questioning sizing as many times as 50 being BS, you obviously DO NOT understand that these chambers in question are NOT SAAMI spec.
Just the same with my 300WM A191 chambers, careful sizing and annealing, my brass lasts 20 sizings with very few trimmings.
Sizing your cases .001"-.0015" in ANY direction is key. If you size a neck from .008" over bullet diameter, as most standard dies do, down to .002" under bullet diameter, or more, then that brass is going to have different spring back and 'tension' even if you regularly anneal.
Too many assumptions are being made in this discussion, just because YOUR brass requires .004" interference to get 40lbs of force during seating, which is moot regarding bullet release, does not mean that you are getting more tension, brass can only exert a certain number of tension, it does not increase just because you have made the hole smaller, with the bullet seated, it is exactly the same…
I can anneal my brass to make neck tension change, it has nothing to do with it's size prior to seating…

Cheers.

MagnumManiac said:

Again, neck tension is NOT governed by interference numbers…it is the HARDNESS of said brass and alloy content.
To those questioning sizing as many times as 50 being BS, you obviously DO NOT understand that these chambers in question are NOT SAAMI spec.
Just the same with my 300WM A191 chambers, careful sizing and annealing, my brass lasts 20 sizings with very few trimmings.
Sizing your cases .001"-.0015" in ANY direction is key. If you size a neck from .008" over bullet diameter, as most standard dies do, down to .002" under bullet diameter, or more, then that brass is going to have different spring back and 'tension' even if you regularly anneal.
Too many assumptions are being made in this discussion, just because YOUR brass requires .004" interference to get 40lbs of force during seating, which is moot regarding bullet release, does not mean that you are getting more tension, brass can only exert a certain number of tension, it does not increase just because you have made the hole smaller, with the bullet seated, it is exactly the same…
I can anneal my brass to make neck tension change, it has nothing to do with it's size prior to seating…

Cheers.

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I am most grateful some wise individuals broke out and left SAAMI…. They sure make it interesting for Me. And wring out every drop of performance.