Done with 215 Bergers

treillw said:

I might as well be bringing up politics, but here it goes. I've been shooting the 215 Bergers out of my 300 win since 2017. Developed a great load shooting sub half minute at 2705 fps.

2017:

• Wife shot a cow at 260 yards. Didn't look for a blood trail because we could see the animal laying 40 yards away. Bullet worked. Wonderful.

2018:

• I shot at a cow. 300ish yards, poor rest, rushed/hectic shot. My wife, brother and I looked for about 1.5 hours. Couldn't find a drop of blood. No hair. Nothing. Three people looking all over for that long, we swore I missed. My other brother had a tag and ran off after the herd after my shot. He came back and asked if we found blood. No, we said. I guess I missed. He said alright. Let's head back to the truck. He started walking and we all followed closely behind. After a couple hundred yards he stepped to the side to reveal my dead elk laying there. He followed that elks tracks the whole way back to where we stood looking for blood and said that he didn't see a single drop. Granted this one is my fault; I hit it in the guts. I would still hope to see some sign of a hit.
• The next day my wife shot at a cow at 460 yards. She practices at this range all the time and I know she can make the shot. She doesn't shoot if she's not comfortable and confident. No sign at all of a hit. The four of us looked for half the day and couldn't find anything. She definitely could have missed, but after the previous day's display I would not be surprised at all if she hit it.
• Couple of weeks later I shot a cow at 260 yards. Ended up breaking the front shoulder and it only went 10 yards.

2019:

• I shot a bull at 40 yards. It ran maybe 70 yards with blood spewing everywhere and died. Happy
• My wife shot a bull at 260 yards and dropped it in it's tracks. Happy.

2020:

• This spring I shot a beautiful big color phased bear. 260 yards, prone, solid as a rock - I could hit a baseball with the gun at that range. The bear was over a hill and disappeared after the shot. It looked like I hit it in the scope. Walked up to it swearing I would find a beautiful dead bear. Nothing. No hair. No blood. Nothing. Looked all over. Nothing. Two weeks later I found a pretty monstrous (in my book) black bear skull in the same area. My bear? I'll never know for certain. Sickening.
• Monday I shot a bull. Thought it was dead. Walked up to it and it stood up. I shot it at ~30 yards broadside right in the boiler room. It flinched and kept standing. I shot it again, right in the boiler room. It took a couple steps and fell. I gave it 30 seconds and it was still pretty with it, so I shot it in the head. Still moving. Shot it in the head again and it finally faded slowly.

The first shot was at about 100 yards. None of the shots, except one head shot, had exit wounds. I found one copper jacket laying against the far side ribcage. The autopsy revealed that the internal organs were essentially fully intact. I saw no signs of the one "boiler room" shot. The other one, I saw a hole the size of my pointer finger through the lungs. I could barely stick my finger through the hole. The bullet didn't exit the far side of the animal, but penciled through the lungs - I would have expected to find a pencil exit.

I guess I'm starting to see why "not suitable for hunting" is stamped onto the box.

Unless somebody can show me what I'm doing wrong here, I'm pretty sure I'm done with the 215 hybrid. I might try the 205 Elite Hunters out. I'm also open to other suggestions.

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A bloke who has done ridiculous amounts of testing of many projectiles in numerous calibres on game told me that he considers Berger VLD Hunting projectiles unethical.

I've experienced no problems with the terminal performance of Berger bullets. It's just the terrible accuracy that concerns me.

I've had great experiences with the ELD-x and ELD-M.

red6x6 said:

A bloke who has done ridiculous amounts of testing of many projectiles in numerous calibres on game told me that he considers Berger VLD Hunting projectiles unethical.

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"Rule #1!"

red6x6 said:

A bloke who has done ridiculous amounts of testing of many projectiles in numerous calibres on game told me that he considers Berger VLD Hunting projectiles unethical.

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That's one opinion. My elk in the freezer would disagree.

As usual, I learned a lot reading this thread, from both sides of the debate.
At the risk of being socially shamed, I'll share my recent story. It is not meant to justify anything, only describe what happened.
I shoot a 28 Nosler with the Berger 180gr Hybrid Target. I love the bullet. Very accurate and have shot everything from turkey to hogs to whitetail to axis and audad. Never had a problem or complaint about performance.
On a recent elk hunt, I shot a nice bull at 485 yards.
Not really a long shot but it was a little tricky bc of the wind call. We were up on top of ridge, shooting down and across to a meadow on the other side. Left to right wind at probably 10-15 mph on top but 0 mph down where the elk was.
I went with almost a zero wind call and fired the first shot. Elk did not flinch, did not move. I thought I had missed but my buddy was watching the trace and said I hit it but slightly back. So I held a little more left and shot. Elk humped up, took 2 steps and fell over dead.
When we got down to it, I could see that the first shot was slightly back. It did clipped the lungs but was a clear through and through. Small hole on each side, no expansion at all. No shredding of organs. The second shot was about 3-4 inches forward on same horizontal plane. Small hole in, no exit. I found very small bits and pieces of the bullet but no large pieces. The organs were shredded somewhat but not what you would call devastating.
I have attached a picture of the entry holes.
Yes, the shots were not perfect but at the same time, I just remember being surprised by the bullet performance.

Ok so I wasn't going to jump in on this but I've had 2 years of BAD experiences with the180 Berger VLD Hunter. Granted its out of a 28 Nosler running at 3082fps MV (some would say that's too fast for that bullet). Last season I shot a Mule deer buck at 90 yards. He was quartered away and I hit him at the point of the shoulder. The bullet blew up on the shoulder no penetration. The impact knocked him down and I got to the buck before he got back up. I wasn't happy with the performance of the bullet but decided to give it another go on an elk hunt in New Mexico a couple of weeks ago. Got lucky and found a bull at 256 yards. He was moving but I hit him in the shoulder about half way down from the point of his shoulder. He kept moving. The next shot hit square in the rib. He kept going. Finally managed to kill him with a ELDX I had as a backup bullet. Upon inspection the first round blew up on the shoulder but managed to break the bone. The rib shot broke the rib but also blew up on the surface. When he was hanging I found that neither round penetrated beyond the surface or into the body cavity. So with that Bye Bye Berger's. Heading to Colorado next week with good old 160 Accubonds. I know they kill

There are so many things that play into how bullets perform , speed of the projectile upon impact , shot placement , altitude. air density , temperature , the jacket , the core design of the bullet all play into how a given bullet will work out for your style of shooting and what it is that one is shooting . If you don't like the way a bullet works for you then change bullets if you like the way a bullet works for you then keep using it . No one bullet works for all of us in all situations that's why we have so many bullet diameters , weights, and designs each to their own . I use different bullets depending on what I'm using it for heck I don't even use the same weight bullets or bullet designs for every thing I shoot with the same rifle . As an example I may shoot coyote with 110 or 125 grain bullets out of my 30-06 but shoot deer with not less then a 125 grain bullet but I wouldn't shoot an elk with less then a 150 grain round out of it . I might use a monolithic 125 grain on a coyote but I wouldn't use that on a deer. As for me I think about what I'm going to be doing with my rifle and then take what I have decided will work best for that situation . I got out of the service and can make decisions for myself on what rounds to use for what situations I will place myself in and am no longer told what round I will be using for all situations . But then for me the studying and shooting to figure things out are the fun part of it . You all have a good Sunday now . D

You do understand you dont have to go online and see how many people agree with you before shooting another bullet, right?

You can just buy them, load em, and shoot them. They will work that way.

It is all a matter of being respectful and responsible hunter. You have to live with your decisions.

Just when I thought we had this thread going in the right direction, off the tracks we go. Does anyone read a thread from the beginning???

Use bullets for what they were designed for. For instance, you wouldn't use a Volkswagen for a tow truck or run a tow truck on a road course.

remingtonman_25_06 said:

I quit using them 15 years ago before they were even really popular for hunting, still labeled just target VLD bullets. Used the .257" 115g VLDs in 25/06, 7mm 168g and 180g VLDs in a 7 RM, and 210g VLDs in a 300 RUM. The terminal performance was just unpredictable at best. Sometimes, they would pencil through like FMJs up close, sometimes they would blow up at 600-800 yards like varmint bullets. Never did lose an animal with them, thank goodness, but some did take 2 or 3 follow up shots as well. I switched to Hornady AMAXs and never looked back in 7mm and 30 cal. Still have a thousand or so of the 7mm/162 AMAX. Also using the 180g ELDMs. I dont have to worry about what they're going to do when they hit an animal close or far, they expand violently either way, every time. Work better at longer ranges IMO, but work just as well up close if you slip em behind the shoulder. Just my experience anyway. Plus the Hornadys are about half the cost of Bergers and give up really nothing in terms of BC or accuracy in my rifles, and they kill really well when you put the bullet where it needs to go.

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I've had very bad performance from the ELDM line. I've used 147 6.5mm and 180 7mm for hunting with very bad results.
147gr@3050fps hit a coyote facing me @570yds right in the center of the chest. Went down, rolled over stand up and ran away.
147gr@2850fps @170yds hit an aoudad sheep on the shoulder. He ran away, no blood trail, lost animal.
180gr7mm@3000fps hit a javellina broad side @200yds DRT but no exit wound. It's a very small animal I would expect an exit wound from a bullet that heavy on such a small animal.
180gr7mm@3000fps hit a whitetail deer @240yds. High shoulder shot dropped him on its tracks. Went to retrieve the animal 10 minutes later an it was still alive, had to finish him with my handgun. The spine was broken, but no exit wound, and no considerable internal damage. I'm switching to nosler accubonds and Barnes LRX for better terminal performance

We do read them from the beginning we just get into our own zone and talk about what we do .