The New Raptor is hatching.....

[KNHOTROD]

I to will be waiting for the sporter version in 7am indeed, Been awhile since I last purchased a custom. I will make it interesting in what I want which has to be fun based on a gunsmith gets to test his superior knowledge in building one of kind for that client.

PS: Kirby what is your time frame roughly for a gun now days. Money is burning a hole in my pocket.

7mm calibers for life over 200 kills of the most beatifull amimals in mid west states.

 

[NONYA]

Nonya,

Yes, techincally it would classify under the new Montana registry exception law. For those that do not know what that is. The Montana house and senate passed a law that said any firearm made in the state of Montana would not be required to have a background check filed with the FBI on purchase to another Montana citizen and also no registration paper work would need to be filled out.

That all sounds good but here is the fly in the soup and the law makers knew this going in making the law more of a statement and nothing else. TO make a firearm, I have to have a manufacturers FFL license, that is a Federal license. I do not need any license from the state of Montana other then tax IDs and commerical permits from the county I am in to run my business and also satisfy any federal requirements for this type of business. That meaning, I have to have an FFL.

Since the federal government, specifically the BATF is in charge of issuing these licenses, they can also revoke them which would mean I would not be able to be a firearms manufacturer. Simply put, the feds still have their arm up us FFL holders rears to far to thumb our nose at them to hard!!!

In the end, if we want to continue interstate sales of firearms, we have to follow Federal laws and that means register and background checks on new firearm sales....

The law only applies to made in mt firearms being sold to montana residents,so interstate sales are not effected by the law any ways.You didnt need a background check to make this sale before the new did you?

 

[bigngreen]

I was also under the impression that all the materials for the manufacturing had to be sourced in Montana also, so the barrel and action manufacture would need to get raw materials from MT then cut them in MT.
Montana is still hard to beat for an arms bearing citizen!!

 

[Fiftydriver]

KNHOTROD,

Right now, time frame is still a bit up in the air until we finalize on the receiver specs and then its off to the stock maker. The Sporter version is a ways out but I am hoping this year if all goes as expected.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Nonya,

First off, unless you had a concealed carry permit or some other ATF approved identification, even Montana residents had to go through the NICS background check that the FBI does.

I believe the new law eliminates this but again, my point was this. The ATF controls who gets and who does not get their FFL renewed. The ATF is not under the control of Obama, Pelosi and Reid. I think you can see where this is going. Give them a reason to revoke your FFL and I am sure they would not loose any sleep doing so.

As much as I appreicate my fellow Montana customers, they simply do not produce enough rifle sales to maintain a living so I have to look at the larger picture. That being, having to satisfy the Feds and their rules above those of the state.

That is my only point.

Look at is as when we had the "No Speed Limit" here in Montana. We could pretty much do what we want here in the state but when we leave the state we play by a different set of rules.

The Feds pressured the state by telling them they may take federal funds away if they did not impose a speed limit, look what happened. Similiar thing here. We can do what we want here in the state but I can not make a living inside the state alone for rifle orders. Sad but true.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Bigngreen,

I do not believe the law is that restrictive. I believe the raw materials can come in from anywhere. Raw materials are in no way considered firearm parts so there is no paperwork on them really. Its only when they are turned into actual finished rifle parts that the ATF classifies them as a receiver other then a round piece of steel. Once classified as a receiver, it has the same status as a completed firearm so as long as the receiver is made here in the state I believe that would satisfy the law.

 

[jmden]

"This Ramshot Magnum powder is advertised as being just as stable under temp changes as any of the extreme stick powders(Hodgdon) but that did not seem to be the case in my range results."

"I am going to test some Retumbo and see how that works. This is my standard powder in my standard 338 AX. I will likely drop a bit of velocity simply because of not being able to get as much powder in the case but I should still be able to break 3000 fps with the 300 gr SMK and if velocity stays consistant, thats far more important. If Retumbo proves to slow for the 338 AX with the Hybrid throat, I will step down to H-1000 for a bit faster burn rate."

Kirby, What about US869. Sounds like from above you think it'll be too slow and it'll probably be temp sensitive moreso than you like. I know 'long ranger' up at Alberta Tactical uses it at around 110+ grs. for his 338 Lap AI w/ 300 SMK and gets top velocities, but I don't know what kind of temp sensitivity issues he's run into.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Sorry for the lag time guys, had to get some work done in the shop and weather has kept me off the range for any more load development.

It has now warmed up here in Montana which always means wind and a mess from the snow that had fallen. Still, I was able to do some velocity testing at the shop late this week and wanted to offer some of the results with you.

Temps were right at 40 degrees. These are with the 300 gr SMK seated to roughly 3.670" OAL. The first powder I tested was Retumbo. Test proceedure was to load up three rounds, fire them over the chrono to check velocity and get an idea of velocity spreads. Once I found a max working load I would then shoot a 5 shot string of that load checking the velocity string. When done with one powder, roughly 25 rounds or so, the barrel would be completely cleaned, relubed and start on a new powder for testing.

Again, first powder up was Retumbo. These are velocity tests only, no accuracy results, just to darn windy for any meaningful long rangne work.

95.0 gr......................................2785 fps
96.0 gr......................................2821 fps
97.0 gr......................................2886 fps
98.0 gr......................................2930 fps
99.0 gr......................................2967 fps
100.0 gr....................................2975 fps

I stopped at 100.0 gr simply because the load density was getting higher then I like. No powder crushing at this point getting close. The cases I used for these tests had just been formed using the corn meal method of fireforming so I was full pressure forming while getting some load data.

I took 5 rounds and loaded them up at 100.0 gr and chronoed them. Here were the velocity recordings:

2983 fps
2983 fps
2961 fps
2972 fps
2953 fps

30 fps extreme spread.

I quickly realized that my theory about the veritical stringing at long range was due to the fireformed cases seemed to be correct.

Just to prove this I took five rounds of high pressure once fired cases and repeated the chrono test with the same load:

2973 fps
2978 fps
2977 fps
2988 fps
2975 fps

15 fps extreme spread.

Cut her in half with just using once fired high pressure cases, proving my theory.

After seeing this I started wondering if the Ramshot powder would perform the same way and offer a bit more velocity so I cleaned the bore completely and started the test over using Ramshot Magnum with fully formed cases. For this test I used a load of 105.0 gr which on my first velocity test at 18 degrees, averaged 3011 fps. At 40 degrees here are the results for 5 shots:

3030 fps
3049 fps
3034 fps
3041 fps
3057 fps

27 fps extreme spread and averaged roughly 30 fps more velocity with only 22 degrees change in temps. I was very happy with the performance level, just not the consistancy or stability and I suspect these numbers were much tighter then what I was getting in the cornmeal formed cases.

After testing with this powder again, I again cleaned the bore and was really suprised at the difference in carbon fouling between Retumbo and Magnum. There was MUCH more with Magnum.

Seeing this and also seeing how the case filled up with Retumbo pretty quickly, I decided to give H-1000 a try and see what happened. Here are the velocity results:

96.0 gr...................................2835 fps
97.0 gr...................................2866 fps
98.0 gr...................................2935 fps
99.0 gr...................................2971 fps
100.0 gr.................................3045 fps

Again, I stopped at 100.0 gr which was right at 100% load density. Loaded up five fully formed cases and checked for velocity spreads:

2995 fps
2957 fps
2987 fps
2997 fps
2982 fps

40 fps extreme spread....... Not good.

I went back to Retumbo again, another 5 at 100.0 grains to see they would maintain the best extreme spreads consistantly. They did, another 5 rounds held right at 16 fps spreads, nearly identical to the other five and averged withing a couple fps of the first five as well. I figured this was my load but there was just a hint more ejector ring mark on the case head they I wanted to see. Just for the heck of it I loaded up five more rounds with 100.0 gr Retumbo but this time seated them to roughly 3.650" OAL, 20 thou deeper then I had been using. This is roughly 20 thou off the lands.

I was surpised to see the chrono results:

2981 fps
2980 fps
2983 fps
2981 fps
2981 fps

Three of the five were identical and extreme spread was only 3 fps total!!!! I had found the load I would test for long range accuracy. I will admit, I am still learning about my Hybrid throat and its preferences as far as seating depth and what it likes. I was also suprised at the stark difference in velocity spreads from one seating depth to another. This does make it very easy to see differences however.

So I loaded up 50 rounds at this load level and will take it out and do some long range work. Its pretty windy today again but may go out and try it anyway.

I was hoping for +3000 fps and I certainly could get that with any of these powders but consistancy just was not quite there. Maybe it would be at this seating depth but as time is running short before the hunt, I need to get on the range and off the load development. Averaging 2982 fps is not all that bad, especially with a 3.650" OAL seating depth.

Just to see, I figured what the load density would be if seated to 3.990"..... I would go from around a 102% load density at this short overall length to between 92 to 94% load density. Retumbo has proven capable of allowing 100% load density in this chambering so likely I would be able to add another 6-7 grains of powder in a long throated 338 AX and again, I would be amazed if it would not get near of top 3100 fps even with Retumbo. Not sure what it would do long seated with Ramshot Magnum but over 3100 fps obviously.

I plan on taking the gongs up with me on the long range testing. IF I can figure out how to post some video I will get it up here for you guys to check out. I realize most of this has been just me talking, it would be nice to offer you some visuals as well!!!

 

[Fiftydriver]

Personally, I think US869 is WAY to slow for a chambering with the expansion ratio that the 338 AX has. That said, generally, you will get extremely consistant velocities with powders like this but you will also have some severe carbon fouling as well.

While I have not tested US869 in the 338 AX, I have tested it in the 50 BMG, 510 AM, 270 AM, 7mm AM, 300 AX and 338 AM and while accuracy and consistancy was good, it could not stand with the extreme stick powders for consistancy over wide temp ranges so I stopped testing it. It was not any worse then WC872 but no where near powders such as Retumbo and H-50BMG in their appropriate cartridge classes for each powder. And, MUCH dirtier.

I have read about Long Rangers results which do seem somewhat mystical, especially the throat life he is getting. I tested Gun Juice which he says is the reason for his extreme barrel life and DID NOT get the same results, not even close. It did reduce fouling noticably AS LONG as you used it religiously. If you did not, you had serious fouling problems because the bore was never really broken in properly and was dependant on the dry film lube to prevent copper fouling.

Anyway, My actual testing shows that there are better, more consistant powders for my use. No disrespect to Long Ranger at all, just my results were much different then his for some reason. Can not say why as the test proceedures were pretty much identical.

 

[jmden]

Personally, I think US869 is WAY to slow for a chambering with the expansion ratio that the 338 AX has. That said, generally, you will get extremely consistant velocities with powders like this but you will also have some severe carbon fouling as well.

While I have not tested US869 in the 338 AX, I have tested it in the 50 BMG, 510 AM, 270 AM, 7mm AM, 300 AX and 338 AM and while accuracy and consistancy was good, it could not stand with the extreme stick powders for consistancy over wide temp ranges so I stopped testing it. It was not any worse then WC872 but no where near powders such as Retumbo and H-50BMG in their appropriate cartridge classes for each powder. And, MUCH dirtier.

I have read about Long Rangers results which do seem somewhat mystical, especially the throat life he is getting. I tested Gun Juice which he says is the reason for his extreme barrel life and DID NOT get the same results, not even close. It did reduce fouling noticably AS LONG as you used it religiously. If you did not, you had serious fouling problems because the bore was never really broken in properly and was dependant on the dry film lube to prevent copper fouling.

Anyway, My actual testing shows that there are better, more consistant powders for my use. No disrespect to Long Ranger at all, just my results were much different then his for some reason. Can not say why as the test proceedures were pretty much identical.

Kirby,

Thanks for the latest report on the Raptor a post or two above. Very interesting findings--I'm watching this closely as I've got all the parts for the 338AX at your shop, as you know, so following this is especially interesting to me. Since I'll have the 4.00" OAL option with the Wyatt's box, I'm very curious what happens in tests for MV and accuracy with the Hybrid throat with bullet seated out to max case volume. It'll be very interesting to see your results with that and which powder (probably Retumbo--which is good cause I've got most of an 8lb jug of it already for the 300RUM and 210's.) you'll end up reccomending for that situation.

I also appreciate you relating your experience regarding US869 (what I suspected you'd say) and Gun Juice.

 

[Pdvdh]

I have read about Long Rangers results which do seem somewhat mystical, especially the throat life he is getting. I tested Gun Juice which he says is the reason for his extreme barrel life and DID NOT get the same results, not even close. It did reduce fouling noticably AS LONG as you used it religiously. If you did not, you had serious fouling problems because the bore was never really broken in properly and was dependant on the dry film lube to prevent copper fouling.

This will be short and sweet so as to not steal the real purpose of this thread. I've treated about 7 barrels with Gun Juice which were all low mileage barrels that had already been broke in bare back. Only one of these barrels fouled much with copper prior to Gun Juice treatment. They all foul much less than they did prior to treatment (carbon fouling). Like I said, none of them really fouled copper badly after breakin anyhow. I think barrels should be broke in the first 10-20 shots bone dry - the shoot once clean to bare steel method - to smooth out any burrs or roughness. Only makes sense to me, if the goal is to wear the bore smoother with the first few shots. Then treat with Gun Juice. I clean all the way back to baby butt clean before coating with Gun Juice and shooting the next bullet.

I can't speak to throat wear or life, as I haven't shot enough to know, and likely won't, other than with one barrel burning 25 RUM. All I can say is my bores stay cleaner longer. I don't clean my barrels very often, which means they're already fouled when I go to the field - no worry about clean bore first shots because my bore is typically left fouled. And I believe the Gun Juice adds a layer of corrosion protection to my bores when left fouled.

I don't shoot as much as Kirby does. So condition my comments with that in mind. Gun Juice turned off...

 

[Fiftydriver]

Porwath,

I would agree with pretty much all that you said. There is merit to Gun juice but after the barrel has been broken in the "Hard Way" if you will. I have tested it both ways and if used right from the start, the only way you maintained the benefits of this product was to keep using it religiously.

On barrels that had already been broken in properly, I did notice some difference in cleaning ease.

That said, I will echo your comments as well, these barrels, mostly Lilja barrels, simply did not copper foul to begin with but I wanted to test the theory of the product so I could given an educated opinion of it to my customers.

In my opinion this is similiar to coated bullets but perhaps a bit better results.

In the end, its my personal opinion that if you have a fine quality barrel, break it in properly and clean it regularly, cleaning will be an easy project and accuracy will be great. No need for much more but thats just my opinion. Everyone got one!!!

Thanks for your report and results.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Well, for those following the progress of the Raptor LRSS I wanted to update you. I took the rifle out several times last weekend and early this week and while the rifle shot some extremely good three shot groups at long range time and again, every time I went out it seemed that Point of Impact was shifting from session to session. Something that really suprised me.

So, this week I set out to find out what was causing it and I found several things that could have been causing the problem. First off, I checked the bedding of the rifle to make sure it was correct. BUT, when I unscrewed the receiver screws and left the barrel screw tight, the receiver would lift out of the stock roughly 1/16"......... Not good at all.

At some point, the stock had developed a flex in it. I believe this may have happened after bedding. I put the stock under a heat lamp to spead up the cure time of the bedding. This is something I do all the time with McMillan stocks and have never had any problem at all but my theory is that the aluminum frame in the HS stock got hot and bowed slightly and then when the full length bedding fully cured, it held the frame in this position causing the flex in the stock.

I also pulled the scope and rail base off the receiver. The rings did not show any signs of slippage but the rail base did. Not much but from the bright shiny contact points running down the top of the receiver left from the rail base, it was clear the rail was slipping slightly but anything is to much.

Knowing my hunt was coming up quickly I had to either decide to go with the rifle as it was and limit my shooting to 800 yards or so or try to come up with a new stock and solve the other issues with the rail base.

I called up BJ Bailey at Third Generation Shooters Supply and he told me they just happened to have a McMillan A-5 with adjustable CP and LOP in stock inletted for a Rem 700 in Black and Grey gel coat finish. As soon as I heard that I said send her my way overnight. I really have to give a plug to BJ, he gets S___ done if you need it in a hurry. The next day, late in the afternoon, here comes the old brown truck with the new McMillan stock.

A late night later and the stock was fully inletted and ready for pillar bedding the next morning. However, the next morning, before bedding the new stock I decided to solve the scope base issue. I had had this same problem before but with my much larger 338 Allen Magnum using NF scopes and my PK brakes. The combination of the heavy scope, significant recoil energy and nearly just as significant deceleration caused by the PK brakes would cause the rails to slip on the receivers as well as the rings slip between the slots on the rail base.

To solve this on my Xtreme Heavy Sporter rifles I convert the receiver and rail base to use 4, 10-32 large, tapered head mounting bolts. These solved the problem instantly with the 338 AM so I was sure it would solve the problem with the much less intense 338 AX as well.

Only problem was that the screw holes at the front and rear of the rail base were to close to open them up for the large head 10-32. So, I converted the middle three holes to the larger screws and left the front and rear as the standard 8-40 screws.

The rings did not show any sign of slippage but they may well start now that the rail base WILL NOT go anywhere under firing stresses. So, as with the big 338 AM Xtreme Heavy Sporters I used two sets of NF Ultralight rings, one set for recoil energy support, the other set for deceleration support. This system again has proven bullet proof on the big 338 Allen Magnum so while I believe its overkill for the 338 AX chambered Raptor, thats never a bad thing concerning optical mounting systems.

I then bedded the rifle. One thing I also changed from the original Raptor LRSS stock inletting was that instead of a single barrel mounting bolt just behind the forward recoil lug, I machined a second one roughly 2" ahead of the rear recoil lug. Now the design looks VERY similiar to my old Barrel Bedding V-Block design but without the V-Block in the stock, just pillar bedded.

One theory I had which led me to decide to do this is the long length between the front receiver screw and the lone barrel mounting screw. When the barrel heats up, I was concerned that the barrel section between the two mounting screws may cause some flexing of the barrel as it expands. This is something I never have had a problem with with my Barrel Bedding V-Block design so I deduced it was because of the additional mounting screws holding the barrel solidly and evenly in the stocks bedding.

So with all that done, the rifle was bedded and today I did the clean up and final assembly during my lunch hour. Turned out very nice. This is a more accurate look for what I will have the production Raptor LRSS looking like but with the Manner MCS-T4A stock, again very similiar to the McMillan A-5.

Again, the quad scope rings may be more then needed but with this hunt coming up hard I wanted to make sure there was no weak link of any kind on the Raptor.

I really wanted to get out today to start range testing but I really need to give the bedding one more day to fully cure before shooting the rifle, besides, the winds blowing 25-30 mph anyway so it would not be much fun.

Tomorrow there will be bullets in the air and I will report how the Raptor performs with her new stick. I really like the new look of the Raptor using this stock compared to the HS Precision stock. Feels much better as well. One thing I really like about the A-5 and Manner MCS-T4A is the low receiver set in the stock. Just feels much more stable to me on the bipod and really helps with these high torque producing rifles.

More to come. We leave for the hunt next Saturday so its getting down to crunch time. If the rifle groups as well as it did before but keeps its point of impact consistantly, there will be some whitetails and aoudad rams in serious trouble!!!

 

[Eaglet]

Kirby, that's a lot of work!!! She's pretty though. Keep us updated. I like dreaming, so far I have never been charged for that!