A race to the bottom

[Rhovee]

I have only been a custom rifle owner and accuracy chaser for about 5 years. I have become good friends with a couple awesome gun smiths and people. I have talked to them about the industry and it seems some things are changing. With advancement in components such as Defiance actions, Pre-fit barrels,CNC machines, there seems to be less and less need for gunsmiths over the years. How can they be competitive with action companies offering actions with .001 guarantee headspace for $1,000, and proof research offering chambered carbon barrels with threaded ends for $875. Couple that with a self timing muzzle break and you are off to the races. I personally only trust a few gunsmiths and would never buy a pre-fit from a known barrel company. I am glad that the industry is growing, but it seems that this is going to come at a cost.

 

[358 WCF]

I have only been a custom rifle owner and accuracy chaser for about 5 years. I have become good friends with a couple awesome gun smiths and people. I have talked to them about the industry and it seems some things are changing. With advancement in components such as Defiance actions, Pre-fit barrels,CNC machines, there seems to be less and less need for gunsmiths over the years. How can they be competitive with action companies offering actions with .001 guarantee headspace for $1,000, and proof research offering chambered carbon barrels with threaded ends for $875. Couple that with a self timing muzzle break and you are off to the races. I personally only trust a few gunsmiths and would never buy a pre-fit from a known barrel company. I am glad that the industry is growing, but it seems that this is going to come at a cost.

Figured walnut & blued, even Parkerized steel gives me warm fuzzies. Plastic & stainless is functional but less appealing. Some of these new modern rifles are downright insulting to my senses. Flat out ugly, but new rifle accuracy is way past what many custom guns were doing 40 years ago. Good, bad, or otherwise that's what's happening. I dont like it much, but am just a grumpy old curmudgeon & will be gone in 10 to 20 years.

It's called progress.... or something. I think the real life definition of that word has changed like so many others in the recent past. Out of necessity to work on the old stuff or build really high-zoot hot rod guns, there will remain a few old timers who teach younger machinist/gunsmiths the trade, but they will be far fewer & probably noticeably more expensive than today. Guns are becoming more modular, like cars. Where's Remington today? Where are the new Model 70s coming from? I have no 1st hand experience with this so correct me if I'm wrong, but look at how Savages are made. Screw on a new barrel & adjust headspace with shims or bolt faces. Done. Good to go. That sounds awfully modular to me. I hear they shoot well too.

In another life I fixed cars. I see an almost identical parallel happening with the two. They told me I was good at it, & paid me well. I was even licensed & certified (no, not like that). Up until the 70s & early 80s most things, from starters, to generators, to transmissions & engines, were rebuildable. At one time everything was adjustable. That changed a little more every year until not so much anymore. It's cheaper to buy a crate motor than do a quality rebuild. Try to buy a diode pack... or bearings for your alternator at your local dealership. Mechanics are now called technicians & about all they do is replace assemblies. The last automotive job I had (part time) was rebuilding vintage race cars, but it was mostly engine work. Many were pretty much one-offs to start with, so not many parts were available off the shelf at the local NAPA. It was another learning experience. Life goes on & the world keeps on turning... & we have progress.

 

[Savage 12BVSS]

It's alway's kind of hard to watch thing's change from how they once were, corporate decisions are changing what we get and even altering our perception's as well. Yes it's squeezing the real American gunshop out of existance slowly, my good buddy run's one and still creates great figured wooden stock's and real custom built hunting and target rifles. It's becoming a box store mentality in both retail gun part's and acces. and how firearm's are built and marketed. A generation now looks at carbon and glass stocks as beautiful, prestigious, and worth big bucks. Coated rather than blued steel and plastic starting to appear more and more. Will this all reverse and one day go back? Heck no it's the new way and will be embraced by customer and manufacturer alike, this is the new way. We all will learn to embrace it, young and old alike. I do feel sorry for the real gunsmith's working in real gunshops that will be used less and less, I'm watching it happen with my friend. He has taken a young fellow under his wing so to speak and is teaching him the trade....wonder what it will be like for him?

 

[Deleted member 103481]

The prefit option and advancements of the industry will re-establish the separation between master craftsman smiths and rifle putter-togethers.

 

[Hatrick]

For the last 30 years we have been replacing what works with what sounds good.

 

[milo-2]

I have only been a custom rifle owner and accuracy chaser for about 5 years. I have become good friends with a couple awesome gun smiths and people. I have talked to them about the industry and it seems some things are changing. With advancement in components such as Defiance actions, Pre-fit barrels,CNC machines, there seems to be less and less need for gunsmiths over the years. How can they be competitive with action companies offering actions with .001 guarantee headspace for $1,000, and proof research offering chambered carbon barrels with threaded ends for $875. Couple that with a self timing muzzle break and you are off to the races. I personally only trust a few gunsmiths and would never buy a pre-fit from a known barrel company. I am glad that the industry is growing, but it seems that this is going to come at a cost.

We all win when tolerances get tighter, standards are raised, etc... But I think more and more are building guns today than ever, and they are not starting out with CNC equipment, takes a lot of money upfront. I think there will always be a place for smaller smiths who put out products at reasonable prices. I think these guys are what keeps pricing in check also. Plus we all have different accuracy standards, and the internet skews this big time, we are all shooting the most accurate rifles made and our smith is top tier.
If it all came down to cnc shops, where is the attraction, pricing, turn around times, accuracy, aesthetics? CNC is capital, it needs to run to generate revenue. There is quite a bit that goes into running a successful operation, some older smiths who refuse to change may get pushed aside, but there is replacements, it's the cycle of life. Prices will not drop, if X shop can get this much in labor for his product, which I feel is no better than mine, why shouldn't I up my prices some and prosper more?
We as a society tend to take the paths of least resistance, and instant gratification, but there are always trade offs.
This may be an unfair comparison, but Payless shoes had one heck of a business model, good products(not top shelf) at cheap prices, and they survived for yrs. But when people can get the same product delivered to your door for not much more, the writing was on the wall. Why leave the house for a buck savings.
My smith has a full time job, yet offers a solid product at great prices. I shouldn't say this, but he lacks some finesse in fit and finish, but one can work around that with pre-painted drop in stocks like Manners, or others. My expectations in looks have changed over the yrs, and it is not for the better, I just need a product that looks nice and shoots way better, and it is 6 miles from my house. And we have an understanding concerning my impatience, if I green light wait times, he utilizes it fully, if he knows I am anxious, the rifle gets completed.
IMO, there will always be a place for new smiths, circumstances dictate that someone will be willing to give them a shot, it becomes on them to produce results.

 

[J E Custom]

I am old school and hate to see craftsmanship fade away. It is happening in many things and not being taught to the level It once was. Now everyone specializes and there are less and less that can do everything In there craft. Everyone is in a hurry and expects to be an expert in a few months or years at something that will take a lifetime to learn. (And even then, they will still be learning when they lay down there tools).

Having a craftsman build anything will improve the odds of higher performance for one major reason. "Attention to detail" And pride in workmanship. Also the ability to figure out a problem takes the knowledge to understand every function and its purpose to be able to trouble shoot the smallest of problems. Something that would be impossible for some to figure out , can take a master smith just seconds to find based on the symptoms.

Pre-fit can be good and satisfy many but to the discriminating gun owner just OK is not good enough. The problem I see many times today is the attitude that You can buy accuracy buy how much you pay, or by the name on the rifle, or best of all, the latest and greatest cartridge.
None of this will make you a better shot unless you practice a lot and make an effort to improve your skills.

We all have to find our path and take the one that best serves us, but no matter which path you take, to many there is nothing like owning a hand made rifle that Is one of a kind and will exceed
your skills as a shooter.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Kimber7man]

I have only been a custom rifle owner and accuracy chaser for about 5 years. I have become good friends with a couple awesome gun smiths and people. I have talked to them about the industry and it seems some things are changing. With advancement in components such as Defiance actions, Pre-fit barrels,CNC machines, there seems to be less and less need for gunsmiths over the years. How can they be competitive with action companies offering actions with .001 guarantee headspace for $1,000, and proof research offering chambered carbon barrels with threaded ends for $875. Couple that with a self timing muzzle break and you are off to the races. I personally only trust a few gunsmiths and would never buy a pre-fit from a known barrel company. I am glad that the industry is growing, but it seems that this is going to come at a cost.

Defiance still recommends you have a gunsmith spin your prefit barrel on and headspace it.

 

[BoomFlop]

I think the trend that is happening today is based on time. People (myself included) are impatient. I want a suppressor, however, the waiting time prevents me from purchasing. I would like a custom rifle, however, the 6+ month lead time from most gunsmiths cause me to loose interest.

I also feel that most "custom" rifles are not custom at all. They are an assembly of purchased parts. It takes tools, but doesn't exactly take a craftsman to put them together perfectly, just someone that knows what they are doing. Not like they are hand in letting a stock, etc.

Also, like most things in our World today, every market is flooded. As a consumer we think choices are great. However, excessive choices usually means less quality and this less bang for the same money.

We, as consumers drive all trends. Nobody to blame but ourselves.

Steve

 

[Westernhuntr]

I think this innovation is fantastic for the shooting community.
Many of us are tired of paying ever increasing fees for chambering and threading a barrel etc. And dealing with turn around times of 6 months or more just for a barrel swap.

I was recently quoted $500 to chamber and install a barrel, the blank was $400 so you're looking at close to $1000 for a basic steel rebarrel!

I've had exceptional accuracy from prefits that I installed myself.
Companies like Criterion, and even Proof are offering really great prefits that can be installed in 15 minutes.

I say keep it coming, some of us like to do things our selves

 

[milo-2]

I think this innovation is fantastic for the shooting community.
Many of us are tired of paying ever increasing fees for chambering and threading a barrel etc. And dealing with turn around times of 6 months or more just for a barrel swap.

I was recently quoted $500 to chamber and install a barrel, the blank was $400 so you're looking at close to $1000 for a basic steel rebarrel!

I've had exceptional accuracy from prefits that I installed myself.
Companies like Criterion, and even Proof are offering really great prefits that can be installed in 15 minutes.

I say keep it coming, some of us like to do things our selves

Great points. I can't see myself going the prefit route, but I cannot explain fully why, awesome products to facilitate doing so like you say.
I guess I haven't minded paying for services, for every smith I have used seems to make the sport better in their own way. Whether involved in matches, benefits or the likes, communities and the sport is better because they are in business

 

[26Reload]

My latest build is another 65284...
From stockys....combo...26" proof barrel..iota stock..
Trigger tech no creep...remington receiver and bolt...
Leupold bases..rings and scope....
Turn around time with my Smith is faster than the UPS and USPS delivery....retired from a serious job and now working more than he did at full time.....lol.....
Learned from his dad..and teaching his son.......
I gladly pay for his services.....and it helps to throw a fillet of fresh steelhead to him once in a while.....

 

[Savage 12BVSS]

Defiance still recommends you have a gunsmith spin your prefit barrel on and headspace it.

I guess I really would want to hear the reasoning behind that suggestion, if it goes deeper than they must feel you can't thread the barrel into the reciever........or maybe you can't possibly headspace it youself. Wonder what the charge is to do it for you?

 

[elkaholic]

I guess I really would want to hear the reasoning behind that suggestion, if it goes deeper than they must feel you can't thread the barrel into the reciever........or maybe you can't possibly headspace it youself. Wonder what the charge is to do it for you?

Another possibility might be they don't want to get a bad reputation if people do a poor job of "do it youself".