“My rifle shoots .2s and .3s” ... huh?

[Zymurgist]

I shoot off my elbows with a military style sling. Sometimes with a forend rest sometimes without. When I do my part I can get 3 rounds into an inch.

 

[jbail1]

bipod and rear bag. I've found I tend to shoot worse off a fixed from rest. I eventually get it down, but it takes a few shots. For whatever reason, I'm measurably more consistent off a bipod and rear bag.

 

[BigSky112]

Curious here...

Since it is common for folks to speak of their barrel/rifle's accuracy in terms of group size, I'm curious whether most folks are speaking of groups shot off a solid rest (and reporting mechanical, repeatable accuracy), or off a bipod/bag and reporting the effective accuracy of the "system", which includes shooter.

I don't have access to a sled to lock down my rifle. So when I do load development I'm shooting off a bipod, thereby inducing some shooter error.

When you report your barrel's accuracy on this forum, which method did you use to get that group—solid rest or bipod/bag?

I shoot off both the bipod & the bag

 

[David Emerson]

Whoever says thier rifle shoots .2's and .3's, offer them $100 to do it for 5 shots on demand. I suspect you will keep your $100 bill for quite a while.

People exaggerate, or they have the most favorable definition possible (e.g. I shot a .2" 3 round group once, therefore my rifle shoots "2's" if I do my part)

I build mostly hunting rifles so I always shoot 3 shot groups. I built a 6 rem ack imp that shot a .176. I have built many 25-06 that I built with a reamer I speced. Most went into the 2,s. Understand these are blueprinted remingtons. I built a 28 nosler on a DuMoulin mauser. The man I built it for sent me a picture of a 1/2 inch group at 300 yards. So yes it is very possible but to shoot those groups every day? A tall order. We all know customers that want a 5 pound rifle that shoots in one hole. lol My builds are generally 4 and 5 contour 25 to 27 inch barrels. Also we all know a 5 shot group will open some. If you really want to see the repeatable accuracy of a gun shoot a 10 shot group in 10 minutes.

 

[JDBraddy]

I also shoot F-class, witch is shot from the prone, from bipods in FTR, and at mid to long range, using midsize calibers like .308, .284, 6.5, and the RSAUM's, and I think it is a better basis for comparison of what is realistic than short range benchrest. The ten ring is 1.0 MOA, the X-ring is 0.5 MOA. Most top shooters with cutting edge equipment can average raw scores of 98% or more, but cleans are rare, and few can achieve X-counts north of 70%. Don't think I've ever seen a perfect score (100% X-count) shot. Don't know if one ever has been, or not, but am sure if they have been, then they could be counted on one hand. If thousands of competitive shooters nationwide with high-end equipment, have that much trouble putting 60 shots in a 0.5 MOA circle at 500-1000m, then putting 3 shots on 0.5 MOA target is very common, doing it consistantly difficult but achievable, but doing it on demand, all day long (20+ times) would be a rare and celebrated feat, if not a record. That is 0.5 MOA, not 0.3 or 0.2 MOA, witch is obviously a much more demanding standard.

 

[Jon Bischof]

Varminterror: Thanks for saying what I've been thinking for years! The other marvel of wisdom they trot out: "Anyone can shoot a group like that by accident." I say prove it!--post a photo of a small group you shot by accident that is smaller than what the rifle/ammo combo is capable of. Then I will take you seriously when you point at someone else's tight group and claim it was shot by accident and doesn't really prove what the rifle/ammo combo is capable of shooting.

Usually we shoot larger groups than the combo itself is capable of shooting. Does it ever happen that we accidentally shoot a smaller group than the combo is capable of? Theoretically that may be possible; but I want to see it on paper. Show me the accidental group that is smaller than what the equipment itself can deliver if the marksmanship is good and no "accident".
Here's a statistic to ponder: Those who heap skepticism upon those who post their 0.2's and 0.3 MOA groups--99.95% of them are just not as skilled in marksmanship as those they are nay-saying.
But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for them to post pics of "accidental groups" that are better than what the rifle/ammo can really shoot with near perfect marksmanship. I just don't believe their claims are true.

But there are guys and rifles and ammo that can do it and do it more than once.

There's an unfortunate paradox, there are so many liars out there which exaggerate their ability with a rifle, such nobody believes anyone which actually can and does deliver. One might think people would instinctively look for truth in a pile of lies, but rather folks get so used to expecting falsehoods, they only view the world through lie colored glasses.

Even when truths are told, people look for something to tear it down - "they're only 3 shot groups, meaningless, should have shot 5," "they're only 5 shot groups, they don't mean anything, should have shot 10 shot groups," "it's only one group on one target, cherry-picking the best group doesn't mean anything," so then if someone posts up a half dozen groups on the same page, "it's only one set of targets on one day," or something like "it was from a bench, do it from field positions," or "it wasn't in competition, anyone can shoot well at home with unlimited time, prove it at a match sometime," or when someone uses a heavy rifle, "pretty hard to carry a 20lb rifle up a mountain," or if it's an expensive custom rifle, "I'd be disappointed if a $8,000 rifle didn't shoot like that, my Savage .270 will shoot that well for a fraction of the cost," or if it's 100 yard groups, "anyone can shoot small at 100, let's see how you do at 1,000," .... blah blah... When someone finally, actually delivers supreme accuracy, but people refuse to believe it and look for any way they can to tear it down.

 

[new2mud]

This has a major effect on consistence so I use the lead sled for this reason . I am not very proficient with a bi pod because I cant seem to pre load the by pod the same so I have trouble using it to it's full potential.

JE—what have you observed in terms of accuracy difference between using the lead sled vs bipod or bag? I'm just curious how much increase in group size is introduced by even an experienced shooter such as yourself.

 

[LDHunter]

50 years of shooting at ranges with lots of those years 1-2 days per week at the range and I've seen a boat load of 1/2" rifles (or less) that magically can't shoot under an inch with witnesses present.

I can count on one hand the 5 shot groups under .2" that I was present when they were shot.

I've seen hundreds under 1/2" that were 3 shot groups but most of the other groups shot that day were from 1" to 1.5". I'm not going to say that group was or wasn't luck because I simply don't know.

When someone brags that they have a one holer rifle I always ask them to shoot one 5 shot group under a half inch right there and then and I've only seen 3 people besides myself that were able to produce it even with several tries.

It's only in the last few years that I discovered Whidden Gun Works and now own several Remingtons that can shoot under a half inch group at 100 on demand and some of those with factory ammo.

I'm not all that special but a properly set up rifle with a very very good bedding job is special and John Whidden has modified several of my Remingtons so they will do just that. I just am an old man that has finally learned that I can't make a rifle shoot worth a flip without a master gunsmith working on it first.

By the way... I always shoot with my Bald Eagle cast iron rest with a Bald Eagle rear bag on concrete benches to achieve that kind of accuracy. In the field I'm rarely able to produce much under 1" groups with any kind of rest.

 

[Trekster]

I shot 2, 1 inch groups at 300 yards this weekend. The second group, I had 2 holes touching each other, I almost didn't shoot the 3rd, certain I would blow it. Sure enough, it opened up to the inch. I was sad but happy enough. If I wouldn't have shot the last shot, I probably would have left on cloud nine, falsely of course. If the bullet would have touched, I probably would have called all my friends to brag. For me, that probably would have been a once in a lifetime but I'd probably think I was totally awesome because of that one time. It's all good it's all fun. Keeps you coming back. And the pictures... I almost took a pictures of the 2 groups. But 1, that's just weird and I don't want to be that guy at the range. And 2, how would that have proved to be at 300. 3rd, most important. Who cares haha. Only me.
For what it's worth, I also shot a factory gun with factory ammo and the group opened up to 3-3 1/2 inches, close to 1 moa, which I was pretty happy with too. Again, it's all personal.

 

[Stgraves260]

Curious here...

Since it is common for folks to speak of their barrel/rifle's accuracy in terms of group size, I'm curious whether most folks are speaking of groups shot off a solid rest (and reporting mechanical, repeatable accuracy), or off a bipod/bag and reporting the effective accuracy of the "system", which includes shooter.

I don't have access to a sled to lock down my rifle. So when I do load development I'm shooting off a bipod, thereby inducing some shooter error.

When you report your barrel's accuracy on this forum, which method did you use to get that group—solid rest or bipod/bag?

I can't speak for everyone but I do my load developing of a bench. But I do my drop data from my shooting sticks or my bag. I can't take a bench out to the field. LoL

 

[DartonJager]

I am talking about load development as well!
3 shots tells you very minimal about what a load is doing.

Its one of the foremost reasons I go to the range apart from just resighting before a trip.

Still Ill stand by my statement, anyone can shoot a good 2 or 3 shot group, try to get then to shoot a good 5 shot group!!

I agree.
This is one of three loads That shoot superbly out of my 100% factory Tikka T3 Lite using IMR-4831
The groups using IMR 4451 aren't to shabby either.
No I can not do this every time but i can do it I will say at least over 50% of the time.

 

[new2mud]

I'd probably think I was totally awesome because of that one time. It's all good it's all fun. Keeps you coming back.

Yes! Keeps us going back. And it is fun. Great shooting!

 

[new2mud]

I agree.
This is one of three loads That shoot superbly out of my 100% factory Tikka T3 Lite using IMR-4831
The groups using IMR 4451 aren't to shabby either.
No I can not do this every time but i can do it I will say at least over 50% of the time.

Nice. Off a bipod or lead sled?

 

[MajorSpittle]

I never lock in my rifles. My groups are either prone or bench, sometimes bi-pod and sometime bag depending on rifle setup.

I will shoot multiple rifles routinely while working up loads. It never ceases to amaze me how tight I can keep the crosshairs on target at 100 yrds. I will have issues with a new rifle not grouping and end up checking and rechecking my form/rest/... but then I will shoot my tikka '06 and make a bug hole and think "it sure the hell isn't me causing the MOA+ groups".

I figure that in a typical 5rnd group that the most variance I cause from variance in my sight picture is ~1/4" because rarely do I get groups over .5 MOA with my '06 shooting a particular load I have.

And yes, I realize I can cause MOA+ groups because different rifles sometimes need to be shot differently to perform to their best potential.