1500 ft/lb energy requirement?

[Plinker147]

So many variables I think it would be hard to define a ft lbs it takes to break bones and be lethal.

Most pistols .45 10mm and all will have around 7-900ft lbs at the muzzle. I have shot a few elk and bears with pistols (finishing shots) with mixed results. I had one not penetrate the skull or shoulder bone but most did. Lots of reasons why but from my experience pistols don't kill well for game because they are at the low end of performance needed

Translate that I use a combo of 1000 ft lbs as bare minimum with the bullets min velocity as my criteria. The bullet minimum velocity generally keep ft lbs higher than 1000ft lbs.

 

[Deleted member 103481]

Any 10mm with 900ft lbs at the muzzle is loaded hotter than a steam engine.

 

[Plinker147]

Yup You are correct its 650-700ft lbs for 10mm. I was thinking 900 for some reason

 

[bigngreen]

Breaking an elks shoulder then continuing on into the vitals has more to do with momentum vs resistance to penetration both from the frontal diameter of the bullet and the shoulder.
Energy doesn't really mean much IMO, it's a nice number to look at to compare possibilities but nothing more.
I've hit elk with 3500 ft lbs of energy in the shoulder and not had the bullet make it to the vitals, add a few hundred yards on that and it would have been much more likely to penetrate OR pull that same shot back 10 inches and it's won and done.
On the other end I've hit an elk with 1400 ft lbs of energy and blew through BOTH shoulders but the impact speed was such that the bullet momentum was able to over come the resistance because it didn't blow open wide and penetrated.
Up close I won't trust anything smaller than the heaviest 30 cal bullets to penetrate every elk shoulder into the vitals.
Hitting an elk in the shoulder is the highest percentage way to wound and loose elk, I've seen more elk recovered easier being gut shot than hit in the shoulder and not having the bullet make it into the chest.
If I get forward into the shoulder with even my 28 I just assume I'll be shooting it a second time, a good percentage will be fine but it's not as good as punching through the slats. If I were a guy who had to break the shoulders I would be only running a 338 RUM class case with 250+ he bullets with a preference to 300 gr bullets.

 

[J E Custom]

Just an adder to this post on shoulder shots.

Having hunted Elk with bow and arrow and rifles, any shot in the shoulder needs to be a heavy bullet and good velocities because if you have ever cleaned one you know how much difference there is in thickness depending on where you hit it in the shoulder. the rib down the center may be over 3'' thick and is very hard. the thinnest may still be 1'' thick so even then a light weight bullet may not have enough energy to push threw and hit the vitals. Most of the guys that like this shot shoot 338's or bigger and 250 to 300 grain bullets.

If you can get through the shoulder and into the vitals, it is a devastating shot .but if the bullet cant get through the shoulder, you will most likely wound or lose the Elk unless you can get a follow up shot.

The best shot with most medium caliber rifles in my opinion is the chest shot just behind the shoulder into the heart lung area. he will die if enough damage is done, its just a matter of how far he will go.

Choose wisely

J E CUSTOM

 

[joseph singleton]

I don't have any experience on anything bigger than a whitetail buck. Saying that, I've shot deer with all kinds of rifles from varmint rigs to 375 H&H magnums. All killed the deer plenty dead. It's been my experience that fast light bullets placed in the heart area produce instantaneous death. Large-well constructed heavy projectiles traveling less than 3000 FPS ruin less meat unless bone is struck. I'd rate the 22-250 as the single best cartridge for bringing down deer sized game if the perfect shot is offered (broadside, unobstructed path to target). I say this because the bullet most generally goes in a few inches and blows up like a grenade never leaving an exit wound and dumping all the energy on the target. I've only had one deer in 45 years of hunting take more than one step and that was because I intentionally shot a buck on the shoulder to see how he reacted. This led to a 60 yard run with his shoulder terribly broken and his lungs looked like shrapnel. What do I hunt deer with now you might ask? My primary set up is a 338 Lapua for fields and right of ways where I'm not stalking. If I plan on a still hunt I use a 375 H&H. The 22-250 still sets next to my window for in the event a coyote crossed my property.

Looks like you have a serious honey hole.Thanks for the pics.

 

[DartonJager]

As I've only taken 4 bull elk, 3 with my 338wm (225 NOS/PT and 225 NAB) and one with my .50 cal Encore using a 300grn .45XTP, I am certainly no expert elk hunter. All were double lung with the bullet exiting.
So I am asking why is the so called "high shoulder shot" the holly grail of elk shots? I have always and still do much prefer a double lung shot aiming for the widest and highest part of the lungs. VS a high shoulder shot which is a smaller target VS the lungs admittedly if you take out BOTH shoulders elk is DRT, but only one and who knows?
I take out both lungs and elk is 100% dead on his feet 100% of the time.
Lastly it has to take considerably less energy to go through both lungs VS one shoulder let alone two.

 

[jebel]

Energy thresholds like the ones the OP asks about have been around for 80 years or more. That makes me wonder what type of bullet performance was originally assumed back then.

Bullet performance has come a long ways. Two bullets of the same weight and traveling at the same velocity have the same kinetic energy, but we know that a soft, unbonded bullet will perform very differently than something harder that will retain its shape and weight better.

I'd be less focused on energy at the point of impact and more on the characteristics of the bullet used, ensuring that it's appropriate for the size game and potential obstacles, at the range you intend to shoot.

 

[combatcurt]

I shot this bull with a 2506 at 300 yards. Nosler ballistic tip. First shot broke a rib and went threw both lungs he was going down but still limping off so I hit him again and found the slug in the off side shoulder. Idk what the mv was as it was my buddy's handloads and his rifle but I'm guessing around 3000 fps so at 300 yards it would've had around 1500 ftlbs of energy and went threw a shoulder and the other went threw a rib.
That being said would've rather used my 300 win its shooting a 208 gr bullet at 3100 fps hitting with 3600 ftlbs at 300 yards

What 30 Cal bullet is that? All I can find is a 208 AMAX

 

[6MM06AI]

I've never had a reason to shoot an elk in the shoulder. Unless it's a quartering shot and I aim for the off side shoulder. Have shot around 10 bulls with a bow and only about 5 elk with a rifle, great results in the lungs with everyone I shot

 

[hwy1strat]

As I've only taken 4 bull elk, 3 with my 338wm (225 NOS/PT and 225 NAB) and one with my .50 cal Encore using a 300grn .45XTP, I am certainly no expert elk hunter. All were double lung with the bullet exiting.
So I am asking why is the so called "high shoulder shot" the holly grail of elk shots? I have always and still do much prefer a double lung shot aiming for the widest and highest part of the lungs. VS a high shoulder shot which is a smaller target VS the lungs admittedly if you take out BOTH shoulders elk is DRT, but only one and who knows?
I take out both lungs and elk is 100% dead on his feet 100% of the time.
Lastly it has to take considerably less energy to go through both lungs VS one shoulder let alone two.

It is my understanding that the high shoulder shot is the holy grail because it puts the animal down right where it was shot. This can be vital when shooting long range, and makes it more likely to recover the animal. The reason this shot anchors an animal, is when a bullet strike the shoulder blade, it provides enough resistance that is then transferred into the animal's spine and breaks it. Thus putting the animal down right where it was hit. This may not result in instantaneous death.

Also, you have the thoracic autonomic plexus located just forward of the scapula. This is a huge bundle of autonomic nerve fibers that control things like breathing and heart beat. If this is hit it will most likely cause instantaneous death and the animal will drop right where it was hit.

I am not advocating for any shot placement over another. I am simply sharing my understanding of why people prefer that shot.

This is an awesome article on all of these topics discussed in this thread:
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html

Travis

 

[Bigaldepr]

Colorado laws:
CENTERFIRE RIFLE:
a. Must be a minimum of .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have a minimum 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, a maximum of six rounds are allowed in the magazine and chamber combined.
d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh a minimum of 70 grains for deer, pronghorn and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact energy (at 100 yards) of 1,000-ft.-pounds as rated by manufacturer.
e. It is illegal to hunt game birds, small-game mammals or furbearers with a centerfire rifle larger than .23 caliber during regular rifle deer and elk seasons west of I-25, without an unfilled deer or elk license for the season. A smallgame, furbearer or unfilled big-game license is required.
HANDGUNS:
a. Barrel must be a minimum of 4 inches long.
b. Must use a minimum .24-caliber (6 mm) in diameter expanding bullet.
c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited.
d. Must use a cartridge or load that produces minimum energy of 550-ft.- pounds at 50 yards as rated by manufacturer.

Shooting a bear a with a 70 grn. bullet seems like a very bad idea to me. These are legal limits and obviously not recommended practice. You cannot finish off a wounded animal with a handgun that does not meet the above requirements.

 

[Double Dropper]

Love these posts, there are plenty of variables at work here, bullet construction, velocity, shot placement, even bullet frontal area I believe makes some difference. Utilizing a 1500 ft/lbs is a decent reference, I think the issue comes next of "what if everything is not perfect?" I know, the stories of "using a 243 on the last 12 elk and they were successful kills" cant really argue with success but.....shot placement is not always perfect, bullet performance is not always perfect, and using 1500 lbs as a measure is conversational, archery equipment has much less. The answer is not carved in stone. But I do advocate using enough gun, for when things aren't perfect. I own a 22-250, 243, 25-06, 270, 30-06, 300 Winchester Magnum, 300 RUM and a 35 Whelen and reload for them all, given the choice for a longer shot, maybe quartering, over 300 yards, I would pick my 300 Winchester Mag with 200 grain Accubonds everytime, but that's just me.

 

[Double Dropper]

Lastly I would attempt to put the bullet or arrow through the lungs/heart, not attempt to break the shoulders, I consider this a high risk shot with all the variables.