NEW 6.5 WIN. LONG RANGE MAGNUM!!!

[User4302021]

As I understand it, the belt was created as a headspacing solution in an era where there was very little standardization in chamber dimensions. Essentially, a slightly different way of solving the exact same problem that a rimmed cartridge solves, but with better feeding reliability. That problem today is pretty non-existant compared to what was being dealt with 100 years ago.

Everyone seems to want speed...so if a beltless case allows more interior room for powder within the same required exterior dimension...what does the belt actually do that is desirable or beneficial today?

 

[Deleted member 103481]

It seems to me that most everyone agrees it's useless.

Some say remove it since it's useless, some say don't worry about it since it's not hurting anything, even though it's useless.

But that's all nonsense without belts we would have so much less to argue about.

 

[adam32]

I thought about adding a belt to a 28 Nosler just to **** everyone off...lol

 

[257Tony]

Can you get a factory 264 win mag with a 1 in 8 twist barrel?

I haven't looked at any other than the sendero sfII - that is a 1 in 9. I have heard mixed results stabilizing the 140's - I am guessing the 147 eldm is off the table with a 1 in 9?

I am not a custom rifle guy, I am not opposed to them, They just scare me - i am afraid if I build one, then I will need 10 more and I have 2 kids to put through college first. So I have limited myself to factory offerings

If somebody made a factory rifle in 264 win mag with a 1 in 8 or 1 in 7 twist so I could shoot heavier bullets, something like the sendero sfii or the xbolt lr mcmillan, I would probably go that route over the 26 nosler.

Browning offers 2 rifles in 264 wm, both with 1:8 twist.
The western hunter which is under 7 lbs for a lightweight rig, or the stalker long range with a heavy barrel, about 7.5 lbs.

 

[can1010]

I thought about adding a belt to a 28 Nosler just to **** everyone off...lol

then you have the best of both worlds. belt and rebated rim

 

[Md reloader]

I might start some crap writing this ,but, I was under the impression as I once heard, that the reason for belted cases was reliable case feeding for dangerous game hunting. It seemed to make sense given that by headspacing on the belt and not the shoulder you would reduce the chances of getting stepped on by an elephant trying to get a tight case in a bolt gun. Any opinions ?

 

[FIGJAM]

Browning offers 2 rifles in 264 wm, both with 1:8 twist.
The western hunter which is under 7 lbs for a lightweight rig, or the stalker long range with a heavy barrel, about 7.5 lbs.

Kudos to browning for paying attention to what is going on in the market. It was pointed out to me in another thread that they changed the twist in 26 nosler to 1:7 in 2018. They seem to be pretty responsive to feedback

 

[netman]

When I shoot my Sendero barrel out(if that ever happens) I'm going to rebarrel with a 1:8.

 

[User4302021]

I might start some crap writing this ,but, I was under the impression as I once heard, that the reason for belted cases was reliable case feeding for dangerous game hunting. It seemed to make sense given that by headspacing on the belt and not the shoulder you would reduce the chances of getting stepped on by an elephant trying to get a tight case in a bolt gun. Any opinions ?

Back in the day the chambers were generous and there was no SAAMI or CIP. A dangerous game rifle had to have positive solid headspace but enough room up front to fit any ammunition that might be put in it along with whatever crap might have found it's way in there. The belt wasn't to make it feed, though it was a better solution than a rim. Since cartridges of that era had steeply sloping shoulders, the belt was to keep it from sliding forward in the chamber and misfiring when the primer was struck.

To my mind, defending the continued existence of belted cartridges is akin to defending spoked wooden wheels and hand cranked starters on a motor car. After all, they hail from the same era.

 

[apexmtnman]

Back in the day the chambers were generous and there was no SAAMI or CIP. A dangerous game rifle had to have positive solid headspace but enough room up front to fit any ammunition that might be put in it along with whatever crap might have found it's way in there. The belt wasn't to make it feed, though it was a better solution than a rim. Since cartridges of that era had steeply sloping shoulders, the belt was to keep it from sliding forward in the chamber and misfiring when the primer was struck.

To my mind, defending the continued existence of belted cartridges is akin to defending spoked wooden wheels and hand cranked starters on a motor car. After all, they hail from the same era.

And the 404 Jeffery (1905) and the 416 Rigby (1911) which many of the non belted magnums are based on are new designs?

https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_cartridge_parent_cases.htm

 

[Badgerclaw]

Back in the day the chambers were generous and there was no SAAMI or CIP. A dangerous game rifle had to have positive solid headspace but enough room up front to fit any ammunition that might be put in it along with whatever crap might have found it's way in there. The belt wasn't to make it feed, though it was a better solution than a rim. Since cartridges of that era had steeply sloping shoulders, the belt was to keep it from sliding forward in the chamber and misfiring when the primer was struck.

To my mind, defending the continued existence of belted cartridges is akin to defending spoked wooden wheels and hand cranked starters on a motor car. After all, they hail from the same era.

I think this might be the first valid argument against a belted cartridge. Though I still don't believe the belt hurts anything. I also know from chambering barrels, it is nice to buy one headspace guage and be able to chamber in so many different calibers. Everything from a 264 to a 300 weatherby with one headspace guage. And for the inexperienced reloader that may bump the shoulder too far back, its original perpose is back in use.

 

[User4302021]

And the 404 Jeffery (1905) and the 416 Rigby (1911) which many of the non belted magnums are based on are new designs?

https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_cartridge_parent_cases.htm

I must have missed the part where I said anything was "new".

 

[WildRose]

That's so easy dispute it's almost not worth doing, but I will anyways. I'd like to buy a box of factory loaded 264 Win Mag ammo loaded with a 140gr bullet at over 3200 fps.


Apparently everything has to be laid out very carefully for you, so I'll help out. A non-belted case will have a greater internal case capacity when compared to a belted case with the same rim and case head diameter, assuming comparable case taper and body lengths are used in both cases. Example: a 300 PRC has a greater internal case capacity than a 300 Win Mag despite the 300 Win Mag having a longer case body. A 30 Nosler wouldn't be an accurate comparison since it uses a larger head diameter.


The 264 Win Mag was the 6.5 Creedmoor of it's time. It was all just marketing hype, the belt included since at that time magnums had to have a belt to be cool. There were other cartridges out there before the 264 Win Mag that offered comparable performance. Winchester was just the Hornady of the day and sold people on marketing hype to move more product. I'm not saying that's a bad thing but it's foolish to believe that it's anything more than that. As far as the applying the term magnum, that's just a meaningless word added on to cartridge names. Again, just marketing hype.

It's kind of funny when you see that many of the same folks who hate Hornady for using hyperbole to market new products will cling so desperately to a cartridge sold using the same technique 60 years ago.

What 6.5 commercial cartridge was available at the time that equalled the performance of the .264wm?

 

[TG-5150]

What 6.5 commercial cartridge was available at the time that equalled the performance of the .264wm?

6.5x68(maybe)
https://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5x68S.htm
Paste was added after I made post. Not picking crap, it's just the only one I could come up with. And it's a lil short for era powders.