FFP or SFP

ColoYooper, your use has nothing do with FFP/SFP, but of variable power.

You & tactical folks in general seem more concerned with spotting misses -than hitting targets.
Just opposite of LRH
 
Not sure but is Coloyooper saying that he wants FFP so after spoting misses he knows he is subtended for holdoffs?
 
OK Mikecr, I'll type really slow so you can keep up. Yes in Tactical Competitions AND in Varmint hunting, it useful to be able to spot your misses, to maximize your hits. And yes, in order to observe those (infrequent) misses, one must employ very good shooting form, recoil reduced rifles and cartridges, and a scope magnification that doesn't limit the field of view that you and your rifle can reacquire in time to observe the infrequent miss. But that's half the problem. IN ADDITION, when shooting at distances that require a less than maximum zoom setting in order to observe that infrequent miss, it is beneficial to compute an observed high and low wind correction. I'll frequently dial the minimum wind correction, but the wind may pick up/ or die, the instant that the optimal shot presents itself, and I'll be able to use the hash marks in the reticle at the reduced magnification with a FFP scope to accurately hold off at my predetermined MIL offsets. So in Varmint hunting AND Tactical competitions, we are BOTH interested in making the maximum number of hits.
 
I guess it's hard for me to picture seeing a miss in the field, much less adjusting based on it.
No way to do this with groundhogs or deer.
My focus is on hitting, and if I miss it lives another day.

I dial elevation/5mph drift, and hold-off inches into further wind as it presents.
I don't even need a reticle, as a simple dot/aim point works for me. But my favorite reticle is a med-fine crosshair.
 
You & tactical folks in general seem more concerned with spotting misses -than hitting targets.
You're certainly free to enter a tactical competition sometime...a guy that never misses is sure to impress.
I dial elevation/5mph drift, and hold-off inches into further wind as it presents.
If you're shooting at a paper target with enough magnification you can actually see the lines on the target with which to measure your holdoff in inches, that is a very precise method.

On an animal or a piece of steel at some random range, you're guesstimating what an inch is. Guesstimating is always less accurate than measuring.

Precisely measuring your angular hold with an angular unit, be it MOA or Mil with the reticle, means the only variable is your guesstimation of the wind--what your hold should be.

Guesstimating what X number of inches might look like against this target at that range adds another variable which is completely unnecessary. Now you're guesstimating what your hold is, in addition to what it should be, hoping the two are not too different. By simply measuring the first, you're ensured they're identical every time and a large potential source of error is completely eliminated.
 
since you are on a hunting forum I just don't see a place for FFP on a hunting rifle scope. A hunting scope will spend most of its time on the lowest power setting. because you can always dial up if you need to shoot long range. The problem with FFP is the reticle often struggles in low light. The other problem is those wonderful subtentsions that don't change with power aren't use able at low power anyways. FFP should be reserved for higher power scopes ie 6-24 or even higher. besides if your scope maxes out at say 15x there isn't going to be a mirage reason or other condition to not take your long range shot at the maximum power.

FFP is the latest and greatest thing cooked up by the tactical crowd. Many of these guys carry their 20# rifle including a 40mm tubed 3# scope to the range and never shoot in real field situations, with all the conditions that go along with that.

best advice is look carefully at the scope you intend to buy some reticles work better at certain powers. for instance I love the MOAR reticle. however IMO at the very least it needs illumination in the lesser 10x max magnification scopes, The reticle is much nicer and comfortable to use in the 15x and higher max power scopes. Thats because at low power the reticle isn't near as fine in relation to the target on the higher power scopes.
 
MikeCR, I actually often see misses when hunting when using lower recoil rifles. In fact, this 300 wm I have now is the first one I cant. When trying to hit fox or coyotes on the run you can see your hit or miss and adjust needed. Kentucky Windage on the run if you will. The Christmas Tree style reticles makes that less of a guess and gets you on target quicker. As far as the SFP vss FFP debate in low light, well, I have a SFP long range scope and I can tell you it is NOT easy to see the reticle at sunset at close range. Farther ranges, yes but not close. It is easier when it gets darker and I can see the illumination working. That is at low power with a NightForce NXS NP R-1. Again, I can see it but it is faint at all powers but it does show up better beyond 50 yards. My eyes are 48 years old so there is that too. That is the only shortcoming of the scope I got. Otherwise I love it and if I could crank it up from 3.5 to 6 or 7 and see the reticle better I would see that as a plus. My biggest regret in my current set up is not being able to see the hits. I am not used to that. Should have went a little heavier in the rifle but dang is it accurate.
 
A hunting scope will spend most of its time on the lowest power setting. because you can always dial up if you need to shoot long range. The problem with FFP is the reticle often struggles in low light.
You responded to this point yourself:
best advice is look carefully at the scope you intend to buy some reticles work better at certain powers. for instance I love the MOAR reticle….
FFP or SFP, selecting a good reticle for your application is key. The FFP scopes I use for hunting, since I also hunt with them in the thick brush until dark occasionally, are very easy to see on low powers in low light (even without illumination). They're easier to see than many of the most popular SFP reticles are. They would not make the best choice for a varmint scope. For that, as the OP is asking, there are other FFP and SFP reticles that work very well.

Generalizing that "FFP reticles _____" or "SFP reticles _____" only guarantees whatever you're saying is wrong, since there are many styles of either that vary widely.

The other problem is those wonderful subtentsions that don't change with power aren't use able at low power anyways.

That's really missing the point. You don't need to use the tick marks at 3X or 4X as whatever you're shooting at should be close so it's "point and shoot" just as if you were using a duplex. Where they're useful is when you turn down your 24X or 25X scope to 18X, or 15X or even 10X, as the conditions dictate and still use them as intended.

I'll agree FFP isn't as needed for this use on scopes 10X or less as it's pretty rare to run into conditions on a long shot where 10X is too much. It can be nice, though, as some like to walk around with a scope set on 6X and not have to crank it up on a longish shot just so they can hold wind. With the right reticle, this can work fine.

FFP is the latest and greatest thing cooked up by the tactical crowd. Many of these guys carry their 20# rifle including a 40mm tubed 3# scope to the range and never shoot in real field situations, with all the conditions that go along with that.

Wow, you've never been to a tactical match have you? In my experience, there is absolutely no better training for long-mid range hunting in existence. Shooting "in real field situations, with all the conditions that go along with that" is EXACTLY what you do.

The competition and time pressure simulate "buck fever" better than anything else, many stages require running/climbing something against the clock before shooting so you have to deal with heavy breathing/pounding heart, and since you don't usually have any idea what a stage is going to be like until you're there, being able to "adapt and overcome" to undesirable terrain, shooting positions, etc, as often happens in hunting is rewarded in a way that relaxed practicing on a "square range" where you're in control of everything simply cannot replicate.

But the really good part is you're shooting against other people and they're keeping score. So for the guy who knows everything, has equipment and techniques that'll work brilliantly in every circumstance and has skills that would be legendary if only everybody knew about them….when shooter after shooter scores better on the same targets with the same conditions as he does, we have what we call a "teaching moment." Or "learning opportunity."

Since it takes a bit of pride-swallowing and open-mindedness to make the most of such opportunities, some are sure to avoid them. But I highly encourage every hunter who does anything more than shoot something out of a stand at close range to sign up for and shoot some long range/tactical PRS-type matches in your area. Beyond being an incredible amount of fun, the amount of experience and learning they afford simply can't be found elsewhere.

Those who badmouth them and the people who participate are extremely misguided.
 
Most tactical wannabes are not match competitors though.
And for LR on varmints, SFP is best by far. It's not subjective there at all.
 
You responded to this point yourself:

FFP or SFP, selecting a good reticle for your application is key. The FFP scopes I use for hunting, since I also hunt with them in the thick brush until dark occasionally, are very easy to see on low powers in low light (even without illumination). They're easier to see than many of the most popular SFP reticles are. They would not make the best choice for a varmint scope. For that, as the OP is asking, there are other FFP and SFP reticles that work very well.

Generalizing that "FFP reticles _____" or "SFP reticles _____" only guarantees whatever you're saying is wrong, since there are many styles of either that vary widely.



That's really missing the point. You don't need to use the tick marks at 3X or 4X as whatever you're shooting at should be close so it's "point and shoot" just as if you were using a duplex. Where they're useful is when you turn down your 24X or 25X scope to 18X, or 15X or even 10X, as the conditions dictate and still use them as intended.

I'll agree FFP isn't as needed for this use on scopes 10X or less as it's pretty rare to run into conditions on a long shot where 10X is too much. It can be nice, though, as some like to walk around with a scope set on 6X and not have to crank it up on a longish shot just so they can hold wind. With the right reticle, this can work fine.



Wow, you've never been to a tactical match have you? In my experience, there is absolutely no better training for long-mid range hunting in existence. Shooting "in real field situations, with all the conditions that go along with that" is EXACTLY what you do.

The competition and time pressure simulate "buck fever" better than anything else, many stages require running/climbing something against the clock before shooting so you have to deal with heavy breathing/pounding heart, and since you don't usually have any idea what a stage is going to be like until you're there, being able to "adapt and overcome" to undesirable terrain, shooting positions, etc, as often happens in hunting is rewarded in a way that relaxed practicing on a "square range" where you're in control of everything simply cannot replicate.

But the really good part is you're shooting against other people and they're keeping score. So for the guy who knows everything, has equipment and techniques that'll work brilliantly in every circumstance and has skills that would be legendary if only everybody knew about them….when shooter after shooter scores better on the same targets with the same conditions as he does, we have what we call a "teaching moment." Or "learning opportunity."

Since it takes a bit of pride-swallowing and open-mindedness to make the most of such opportunities, some are sure to avoid them. But I highly encourage every hunter who does anything more than shoot something out of a stand at close range to sign up for and shoot some long range/tactical PRS-type matches in your area. Beyond being an incredible amount of fun, the amount of experience and learning they afford simply can't be found elsewhere.

Those who badmouth them and the people who participate are extremely misguided.

I don't see much I disagree with other than maybe the application of FFP in a hunting situation. it sounds to me like your using higher power scopes for hunting. I said when it comes to what I would call varmint type power ranges FFP might be better for that.

the problem with the tactical community is they know what they know and are SOOO into group think and whatever the fad of the day is. This is never more pronounced than over at snipers hide. like I said 40mm tubed 3 pound scopes suitable for mounting on a 20 mm cannon. That is what they think you need to connect with a shot. tactical shooting competitions are an entirely different discipline than long range hunting.
 
I guess I'm missing the point of "Most tactical wannabes are not match competitors though". But in case it's pertinent, I've attached a couple of photos. And to paraphrase Quigley "Just because I said I participate in a lot of Tactical matches, doesn't mean I don't know how to hunt". Note the scopes on both of those rifles are SFP, but then again I didn't view either of those hunts as varmint hunting. In these hunts I was NOT concerned with the closed loop feedback needed to hit multiple animals. One well placed shot is all I desired. But to conclude that for "LR on varmints, SFP is best by far" doesn't appreciate the difference between operating closed loop vs open loop to maximize the hits on multiple targets.
 

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Open loop/close loop,, no need to reach.
Pretty much everyone shooting in IBS & NBRSA have demonstrated SFP scopes working really well.

I got little varmints(of various sizes/target aspects) way out there -to laser range, solve, dial, and take with single cold bore shots. I'm using pretty high magnification(22-32x), and the best reticle ever invented (for this dialer) is a simple med-fine crosshair which subtends to a very small target obscurity -in SFP.
I hold off inches into wind, as that's as simple as it gets. If I miss there is no spotting of the POI, and that critter usually lives another day.

I don't see it as rational to challenge myself further, with FFP.
What I could do with ranging reticles, I can do more accurately with laser ranging.
What I could do with dots/hashes, I can do with dialing and inches of hold off.
And I can buy a seriously good SFP scope for the price of Hollywood's junk.
 
Whether you admit or not, it boils down to personal preference ... PERIOD!

There are many pros and cons to each method of reticle placement however it is up to the individual user to decide which one is best suited to their application and their checkbook. However, professional shooters and civilian shooters alike have begun to turn to FFP reticles for the increased utility in a variety of situations.

FFPs are fairly common in most European manufacturers.
 
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