WTH is with these scope prices??

[SidecarFlip]

If I had a friend or even just an acquaintence, that during difficult times, used me, abused me, extorted me, and disrespected me and my economic status at the time, all for the purpose of benefiting and overly prospering oneself, I would remember that individual FOREVER.

Everyone has their choice to spend their money for whatever and whomever, but only if you were a fly on the wall at the manufacturer's executive's closed doors and saw how much these scopes really cost (even with all the costs), I believe you just might be upset.

To each his own, but I will not be one to mislead others in spending their money.

Some good posts here.

Beyond a doubt. Probably why those meetings are private.

Here's an interesting scenario that I personally was involved in....

I was at a TRW Steering Systems plant quoting a job. There was a full wire shipping basket of what appeared to be tie rod ends that looked familiar to me. I inquired (because I was curious) to the plant manager as to what kind of tie rod ends those were.

He said those were for Ford 350 pickup trucks. He went on to tell me that actual cost to manufacture them.... you sitting down?? Hope so. How about 25 cents each. I almost fainted because a week earlier I replaced the exact same end on my 350 Ford pickup and the tie rod ends were 46 bucks each. Lets see 25 cents to make, 46 bucks each retail. That is a good markup and that was at Autozone, not a dealer. Dealer cost probably would have been an additional 30%.

Thats capitalism at it's finest and it transpires everyday, in everything and luxury items are most likely at an even higher ratio.

So no, I don't want to know or have any desire to know (about what scopes actually cost a manufacturer) because it would tee me off.

The caveat here is the manufacturer passes most of that markup on to the distributor and the distributor gets some crumbs, like 10-12%. The lions share of the profit is the OEM when it comes to primary parts.

None of that will ever change so long as we operate as a capitalist driven economy and frankly, it works for me. The alternative, a socialist utopia is very counterproductive to individuals as the USSR proved.

I still want to know where the 8 grand new car is, 'cause I'm gonna buy one....

 

[JimBoIHN]

Beyond a doubt. Probably why those meetings are private.

Here's an interesting scenario that I personally was involved in....

I was at a TRW Steering Systems plant quoting a job. There was a full wire shipping basket of what appeared to be tie rod ends that looked familiar to me. I inquired (because I was curious) to the plant manager as to what kind of tie rod ends those were.

He said those were for Ford 350 pickup trucks. He went on to tell me that actual cost to manufacture them.... you sitting down?? Hope so. How about 25 cents each. I almost fainted because a week earlier I replaced the exact same end on my 350 Ford pickup and the tie rod ends were 46 bucks each. Lets see 25 cents to make, 46 bucks each retail. That is a good markup and that was at Autozone, not a dealer. Dealer cost probably would have been an additional 30%.

Thats capitalism at it's finest and it transpires everyday, in everything and luxury items are most likely at an even higher ratio.

So no, I don't want to know or have any desire to know (about what scopes actually cost a manufacturer) because it would tee me off.

The caveat here is the manufacturer passes most of that markup on to the distributor and the distributor gets some crumbs, like 10-12%. The lions share of the profit is the OEM when it comes to primary parts.

None of that will ever change so long as we operate as a capitalist driven economy and frankly, it works for me. The alternative, a socialist utopia is very counterproductive to individuals as the USSR proved.

I still want to know where the 8 grand new car is, 'cause I'm gonna buy one....

Didn't you forget the alternative most of us would like to see? Businesses with a conscience, a sense of right and wrong, fair play, let the best man win, friendly competition...........Those are pretty much gone . Think an upstart company will jump in and kick *** with tie rod ends at 2 X cost? No way, too much red tape, couldn't find customers anyway, Ford only buys from their friends, good ol boys only buy from each other, capitalism just doesn't work here any more. Too much greed, restraint of trade, government interference and red tape..........and honestly, the American consumer is so stupid and lazy that he gets pretty much what he deserves-to be ripped off.

 

[JimBoIHN]

Beyond a doubt. Probably why those meetings are private.

Here's an interesting scenario that I personally was involved in....

I was at a TRW Steering Systems plant quoting a job. There was a full wire shipping basket of what appeared to be tie rod ends that looked familiar to me. I inquired (because I was curious) to the plant manager as to what kind of tie rod ends those were.

He said those were for Ford 350 pickup trucks. He went on to tell me that actual cost to manufacture them.... you sitting down?? Hope so. How about 25 cents each. I almost fainted because a week earlier I replaced the exact same end on my 350 Ford pickup and the tie rod ends were 46 bucks each. Lets see 25 cents to make, 46 bucks each retail. That is a good markup and that was at Autozone, not a dealer. Dealer cost probably would have been an additional 30%.

Thats capitalism at it's finest and it transpires everyday, in everything and luxury items are most likely at an even higher ratio.

So no, I don't want to know or have any desire to know (about what scopes actually cost a manufacturer) because it would tee me off.

The caveat here is the manufacturer passes most of that markup on to the distributor and the distributor gets some crumbs, like 10-12%. The lions share of the profit is the OEM when it comes to primary parts.

None of that will ever change so long as we operate as a capitalist driven economy and frankly, it works for me. The alternative, a socialist utopia is very counterproductive to individuals as the USSR proved.

I still want to know where the 8 grand new car is, 'cause I'm gonna buy one....

Didn't you forget the alternative most of us would like to see? Businesses with a conscience, a sense of right and wrong, fair play, let the best man win, friendly competition...........Those are pretty much gone . Think an upstart company will jump in and kick *** with tie rod ends at 2 X cost? No way, too much red tape, couldn't find customers anyway, Ford only buys from their friends, good ol boys only buy from each other, capitalism just doesn't work here any more. Too much greed, restraint of trade, government interference and red tape..........and honestly, the American consumer is so stupid and lazy that he gets pretty much what he deserves-to be ripped off.
As to the 8 grand car, I bought a Hyundai Accent in 2011, a 2010 model for about 12 grand. Nice car, CD player and some pretty good features, everything that I need. Not quite 8 grand I admit, but a 2010 Elantra at less than 15 grand purchased at the same time. It appears to me that capitalism has been grasped by all our competitors, other countries like Japan, China, Taiwan, Korea............Just look at the ammo that's available from other countries selling dirt cheap right here in our own back yard. Why can't Remington compete with them? They don't feel that they need to, and so far they haven't had to. That's why most of the tech support is being handled by India, Puerto Rico, Phillipines......Those people get it.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Didn't you forget the alternative most of us would like to see?

Businesses with a conscience, a sense of right and wrong, fair play, let the best man win, friendly competition...........

Those are pretty much gone . Think an upstart company will jump in and kick *** with tie rod ends at 2 X cost? No way, too much red tape, couldn't find customers anyway,

Ford only buys from their friends, good ol boys only buy from each other,

capitalism just doesn't work here any more. Too much greed, restraint of trade, government interference and red tape..

........and honestly, the American consumer is so stupid and lazy that he gets pretty much what he deserves-to be ripped off.

I was representing Ford Motor at the supplier and I can tell you without prejudice that your statement that Fords only buys from their friends is completely false. Fords deals with suppliers on a cost/quality/QS Certification in that order. All the automakers do but (I presume) but I don't presume with Fords because I know. I'm sure they would preferred to pay 25 cents each, however, there are a limited number of suppliers for some intrinsic parts and those suppliers set the bar for pricing. If that's unfair to Fords, I can't say, but what it is, it is.

Capitalism is very much alive and well not only here, but worldwide. Inane regulatory standards notwithstanding. If it wasn't, scopes wouldm't cost what they do, cars, motorcycles, in fact any manufactured item and food too. It's supply and demand. When consumers demand an item, any item, suppliers can control the pricing. Thats how it works and has worked since this country was founded.

Competition exists everywhere, in every business scenario. Is there one scope maker or are all the scope makers in collusion? I don't think so. There are many makers, offering a diverse line of optics, in all price and quality ranges. It just so happens we are discussing the high end of the spectrum here. There are still many, many choices out there under 200 bucks and many well over a grand. That, to me appears to be quite fair and very competitive.

In other words, you get what you pay for, 200 or 2,000 bucks.

I see no problem with that aspect.

The American Consumer isn't stupid. Overpaid maybe in comparison to the rest of the world, but not stupid. Your President is working on that bit of unequality (being overpaid).....

Finally, Quality and cost are synonomus with each other and always have been. If you want a quality anything, you have to be willing to pony up the price. The cost of quality items has risen in lock step with the world economy and the devaluation of currency. It's a normal progression of manufactured items including food.

Take a look at China and the importing of cheaper (low quality goods) into this country (and others). People whine about the China imports being of substandard quality, but have no issue purchasing them as evidenced by Wal-Mart and others making millions on imports. People flock to Wallyworld, Harbor Freight and many other retailers and scarf up the imported products, if, in fact they are lower quality or not. It's a choice, not a requirement.

If you don't want to pay the price for quality, there are many optics out there that fall into the realm of Chinese imports, BSA, Leapers, Hawk and Tasco and others come to mind. The consumer choice is there, buy a quality optic with an iron-clad guarantee and pay the price, or buy cheaper. It's your choice and it certainly is all about Capitalism and free market enterprise.

I've tried to explain how Capitalism works in relationship to the equipment we use. It's your choice, again, to purchase what you require at the price point you are comfortable with. However, don't expect the quality or the guarantee of a higher priced optic because it isn't there.

I know what I require and I purchase it.

 

[JimBoIHN]

I was representing Ford Motor at the supplier and I can tell you without prejudice that your statement that Fords only buys from their friends is completely false. Fords deals with suppliers on a cost/quality/QS Certification in that order. All the automakers do but (I presume) but I don't presume with Fords because I know. I'm sure they would preferred to pay 25 cents each, however, there are a limited number of suppliers for some intrinsic parts and those suppliers set the bar for pricing. If that's unfair to Fords, I can't say, but what it is, it is.

Capitalism is very much alive and well not only here, but worldwide. Inane regulatory standards notwithstanding. If it wasn't, scopes wouldm't cost what they do, cars, motorcycles, in fact any manufactured item and food too. It's supply and demand. When consumers demand an item, any item, suppliers can control the pricing. Thats how it works and has worked since this country was founded.

Competition exists everywhere, in every business scenario. Is there one scope maker or are all the scope makers in collusion? I don't think so. There are many makers, offering a diverse line of optics, in all price and quality ranges. It just so happens we are discussing the high end of the spectrum here. There are still many, many choices out there under 200 bucks and many well over a grand. That, to me appears to be quite fair and very competitive.

In other words, you get what you pay for, 200 or 2,000 bucks.

I see no problem with that aspect.

The American Consumer isn't stupid. Overpaid maybe in comparison to the rest of the world, but not stupid. Your President is working on that bit of unequality (being overpaid).....

Yes, suppliers do control the pricing, and mostly by the limiting or destruction of competition. That's how Microsoft created all those BILLIONAIRES. Hard to believe, isn't it. We all know about those $200 screws the Pentagon buys from their good ol boy supplier. They are stainless - don't forget that. Nice to be on the receiving end of those nice, fat military contracts.......I guess. The average guy will never know, because to get those you have to .............know somebody.
And, yes, the American consumer is a complete dupe - maybe not stupid, just gullible to all the hype that advertisers dump on him. If you still believe that what advertisers are feeding you is true...............you're a fool.

 

[Reelamin]

We as a consumer are not very bright. They cost what they do for the same reason everything else does, because people will buy them. An example is my truck. It's a 2008 4 door 4x4 Dodge Ram V8 with power everything. The sticker price on it at the dealer was right at $35,000. I bought it new in December 08 when they were getting the new 09's in. I told them I'd give them $20,000 for it and wouldn't accept more then a 5.5% interest rate...and drove it home. The funny thing is they still made money off of it. Just no where near what they wanted to. It's a nice truck and has served me well so far. Call me cheap but there is no way I would have paid $35,000 on a new truck. A buddy of mines dad just paid $60,000 for a new Chevy!!!! Here's what I say- if people would not buy new cars for one month I bet they would freak out and drop the prices CONSIDERABLY! I wish we could do that with gas, but they got ya by the balls on that one.

Well said!

 

[Sako7STW]

The thing about those of us that get to enjoy the finer things in life second handly is even the second hand stuff will get to high. It works like this. Guy A buys scope in 2009 for $800. Uses it for 2 years. Same scope gets released in 2012 for $1499. Great for guy A he can now sell his scope for $800 when it really is only worth $400. The other problem is only a few can afford $4000. So now the rest are looking for the "affordable" used scopes. All the used scopes get bought up and now they become higher priced due to supply and demand. It is s vicious cycle and it all starts with the greedy sob company peoples behind those private meeting doors. Thats the real economics of it!

 

[rcdinaz]

Sidecar has some good info on cars and the analogy being made. I have to respectfully completely disagree with a lot of the other comments about cars and other big ticket high tech manufacturing items not being worth what they cost. Just a few things to consider:

Your car literally has miles of wire in it alone, checked the price of copper lately? BMW had a bunch of articles about what it is taking them to change from copper wiring to aluminum. It was a huge project to undertake but copper is so expensive they were developing an alternative.

Even an econo box has $1K's worth of electronics alone, ignition, lighting, dash board, environmental controls, emissions, on and on. Your dads 1960 whatever was a metal box that was completely mechanical. Let's face it your radio alone has more computing power than anything built in the 60's for that matter the lighting controls have to dim, blink, etc do. I would love to have a classic car but face it they ride like a crap and have zero creature comforts.

Other items, suspension, hydraulics, GPS, door locks, etc cost crazy amounts to manufacture.

One more point any manufactured item can be done cheaply when volume is realized. What everyone forgets is that tooling, test equipment, and people that know how to use it are extremely expensive. When you get into precision instruments, semiconductors, tooling, etc one machine for one stage of production can cost $100k's to $1M's all to produce a $0.25 part. Even scopes for the cost of the R&D that goes into the glass work alone is pretty phenomenal. I think scope prices are pretty much in line with where they have always been which is equal to or slightly more than the price of a quality rifle. The advice of paying more for optics than your rifle has been around for a long time and there are a lot of people paying $2K-$4k for rifle these days.

So relative to the past things are pretty cheap today just look at the size of a freaking WalMart and the crowd that walks out of there with a shopping cart full of stuff.

Don't get me wrong in all of this I don't enjoy paying a bunch of dough for anything but I really like my rifles and scopes!

 

[Sako7STW]

I think scope prices are pretty much in line with where they have always been which is equal to or slightly more than the price of a quality rifle. The advice of paying more for optics than your rifle has been around for a long time and there are a lot of people paying $2K-$4k for rifle these days.

If you go by that logic then guns would be way more. I paid $450 in 1995 for my Rem Model 700 BDL in .243. I was in Sportsmans Warehouse the other day and for nearly the same rifle it was like $575. I put a Leu VXIII on my .243 for $350. Try buying one of them for that now days! If you went with about the same rate of change that scope should be $450.00 Good luck!!

 

[permaculture]

If I had a friend or even just an acquaintence, that during difficult times, used me, abused me, extorted me, and disrespected me and my economic status at the time, all for the purpose of benefiting and overly prospering oneself, I would remember that individual FOREVER.

.

I remember one well-known company with a strong online presence that raised prices after Obama was elected. They raised prices so quickly that a 20 round box of Wolf 7.62x39 was -59% discount as they never changed the list price they were discounting their cheaper than soil price from the day before. I will never buy from them.

I know of another company that did not raise prices and I wrote to them telling them my appreciation.

 

[load]

If you go by that logic then guns would be way more. I paid $450 in 1995 for my Rem Model 700 BDL in .243. I was in Sportsmans Warehouse the other day and for nearly the same rifle it was like $575. I put a Leu VXIII on my .243 for $350. Try buying one of them for that now days! If you went with about the same rate of change that scope should be $450.00 Good luck!!

winner winner chicken dinner!

 

[SidecarFlip]

Chicken dinner........

One thing that most end users don't take into account is the R&D that goes into any product before it's made available to the public. Many prototypes and many relegated to the scap can....

Then there is the consumer liability issue which is why, when you buy a firearm it comes with a lock and about umpteen pages of warnings. Because people have to be protected from themselves.

And then there is consumer liability insurance and hold harmless agreements.....It all adds to the cost of a product, scopes included.

If we all acted in a respoinsible manner, the last 2 items could be eliminated and the inherent costs passed on in the form of lower prices.... but that won't happen because to be human is to act irrationally.

 

[JimBoIHN]

Comparing property values and luxury hard goods prices in direct relationship isn't a valid comparison simply because....

Housing prices and their decline was perpetuated by the government, more specifically the Fed and their meddling with the market, interest rates and the eventual insolvency of Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae and then the bailout's financed by your money, without your consent. It also had to do with over supply and lessened demand. None of that applies to high end optics or luxury hard goods....

Government intervention played the starring role. Hard goods prices are directly based on inflation and the devalued currency. Consequently, continuing devaluation will increase prices. Thats how it works.

That 4 grand Schmidt and Bender will increase in price based on world market trends. Don't take being clairvoyant to see that, even if you want it to go the other way, lots do, me included but that's a fantasy based on current economics.

Lets distill it a bit further... S&B has to pay it's employees a fair and equitable wage directly based on the value of the currency in their country and sell their product based entirely on the value of the currency in the respective countries where their products are offered and still make a profit, because, that's what free enterprise is all about. Only the government can exist without making money or a tangible product. S&B, as a private entity has to show a profit to their shareholders or owners or they cease to exist. I operate my business on exactly the same principle. The crass statement of 'what the market will bear' is a crude way of saying that to stay in business, employ people, who are in turn consumers, like you, the entity has to be solvent and if solvency means a 4 grand scope, it's a 4 grand scope.

Of course you have a choice in what you buy, that's free enterprise as well. That 4 grand toll isn't for everyone, but so long as there remains a viable percentage of purchasers will to pay 4 grand, S&B will remain in business, paying their employees and contributing to the economy of their country.

What you have going on right now is the separation of the 'haves' and have nots'. Those that can afford high end items and those that can't and I can say from watching not only the markets but sales of luxury items that there are quite a few people out there who are still 'haves'

Like J. Paul Getty so aptly said years ago... "It takes money to make money".

I still want to know where I can buy a new car for 8 grand........

You can't because the auto makers see the consumer paying 8 grand for a rifle scope and reason that he doesn't require an 8 grand car. But they could be made for that price. People would still buy the silly luxury cars with all those options that work for the first year, usually. That's American cars. Don't want to insult the quality car makers.

 

[JimBoIHN]

Sidecar has some good info on cars and the analogy being made. I have to respectfully completely disagree with a lot of the other comments about cars and other big ticket high tech manufacturing items not being worth what they cost. Just a few things to consider:

Your car literally has miles of wire in it alone, checked the price of copper lately? BMW had a bunch of articles about what it is taking them to change from copper wiring to aluminum. It was a huge project to undertake but copper is so expensive they were developing an alternative.

Even an econo box has $1K's worth of electronics alone, ignition, lighting, dash board, environmental controls, emissions, on and on. Your dads 1960 whatever was a metal box that was completely mechanical. Let's face it your radio alone has more computing power than anything built in the 60's for that matter the lighting controls have to dim, blink, etc do. I would love to have a classic car but face it they ride like a crap and have zero creature comforts.

Other items, suspension, hydraulics, GPS, door locks, etc cost crazy amounts to manufacture.

One more point any manufactured item can be done cheaply when volume is realized. What everyone forgets is that tooling, test equipment, and people that know how to use it are extremely expensive. When you get into precision instruments, semiconductors, tooling, etc one machine for one stage of production can cost $100k's to $1M's all to produce a $0.25 part. Even scopes for the cost of the R&D that goes into the glass work alone is pretty phenomenal. I think scope prices are pretty much in line with where they have always been which is equal to or slightly more than the price of a quality rifle. The advice of paying more for optics than your rifle has been around for a long time and there are a lot of people paying $2K-$4k for rifle these days.

So relative to the past things are pretty cheap today just look at the size of a freaking WalMart and the crowd that walks out of there with a shopping cart full of stuff.


I do because I'm one of them. Walmart carries good products that are reasonably priced. The store brands are discounted quite nicely, even though they are often the identical product to name brands. That's because the name brands "have" to recoup all those advertising dollars they spend duping the consumer. Never see anybody going out with no 4 grand scopes, neither. Guess Walmart just doesn't get it! and that's the reason they have been such a dismal failure as a company.
If you buy that last statement you sure are.......a great prospect for a $4 thou scope.