WARNING: NORMA "Whitetail" 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr. SP ammunition- Overpressure!

[bert2368]

Moderators:

If there is a more appropriate place to post this, feel free to move it-

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I searched Google for info about this new NORMA branded ammunition after firing the first 5 rounds and seeing the scary looking brass.

Some others have had even worse experiences- The last picture with 8 cases held in a guy's hand is downloaded from Reddit, I'm amazed he kept shooting as long as he did with those pierced and blown out primers.

Last, a pic of rifle and how it shoots with handloads.

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Rifle involved was a 22" barreled APF AR-10 variant in 6.5 Creedmoor.

Here is the email I just sent to NORMA USA:

Hi Selika-

Please find attached the receipt for the two other boxes of the NORMA Whitetail 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr. SP ammunition I had purchased separately from Brownells.

Also attached is a photo of my test target with notes on observed behavior of this ammunition (inconsistent, vertical stringing, pierced primers, high pressure signs on case heads)

See pictures of the recovered brass showing signs of varied and excessive pressures:

Two cases had completely pierced primers, you can see daylight looking through their flash holes. Clearly, this is NOT normal behavior.

All case heads show a round, slightly raised area where brass has flowed into the ejector cutout in bolt face.

I had not previously or since observed this type of case head marking with 4 other makes of commercial ammunition fired in this rifle.

I verified rifle function with two other loads with identical (140gr.) bullet weights which advertise similar velocities to the NORMA 140gr. "Whitetail" after discovering the NORMA ammunition was misbehaving. I confirmed rifle was functioning normally, brass from other makers did not show "flow" into ejector cut & etc.

All of the case heads show extreme flattening of primers, curvature normally seen at edge of primer cup is flattened out. Similarly, other properly functioning ammunition did NOT have this extreme flattening.

The three cases which did NOT pierce primers on firing all show varying levels of "cratering" where primer cup has flowed into area around firing pin. Once again, the other brands tested did NOT crater primers. This issue is NOT due to an oversized firing pin aperture.

The vertical stringing indicates non uniform pressures. Additionally, the brass ejected was dispersed over a much larger "arc" and several feet farther away than has been normal with this rifle, also indicating high pressure AND ap variation in pressures.

The other brands of ammunition tested to verify rifle function did not string vertically to an abnormal extent and their cases ejected with a normal (much smaller) degree of angular dispersion (they all landed neatly in a small area about 4:00 and 10' away).

The rifle is in good condition, it was and still is functioning normally.

Rifle was clean before firing, the chamber and bore were cleaned of all but slight traces of oil, several tight fitting DRY cloth patches were run through bore from chamber end before this test firing. One "fouling shot" was taken at a different target before the 5 shots taken at target which I have included photo of. I could not find/recover that first shot's fired case-

Additionally: Please note that the two boxes of ammunition purchased from Brownells have a different lot # than the three boxes purchased directly from you.

Brownell's purchase lot #:

0030343-02 (two boxes)

NORMA USA purchase lot #:

0030343-04 (three boxes)

I did test 5 rounds of the second purchase (From NORMA, lot # ending in -04) the next day as well. It showed similar overpressue signs and I experienced at least three more cases with pierced primers. I only recovered 4 of these cases.

I've been shooting for 53 years and reloading for over 30 years. I believe the issue here is with the ammunition.

Thanks for your help in returning this.



Regards,


Bert

PLEASE NOTE: The 8 rounds shown in the guy's hand below here are NOT MINE, WERE NOT FIRED IN MY RIFLE. They wrecked somebody else on a Reddit forum's brand new AR. They ARE the same brand/product #, I'm still trying to get his lot # info.

See here:

 

[Gstew1930]

WHOA!

 

[jpfrog]

Interesting- I bought 5 or 6 boxes from my LGS a few months ago- don't have the receipt anymore. I'll check the lot number when I get home from CO. Still waiting on the rifle for them so I haven't even opened them up- just liked the price ($26) for a box to break in my barrel when it gets here and then have 1x fired Norma brass for hand loads.

Let us know what they say.

 

[WILLR]

It is very nice of you for sharing this info and pictures Let us see how you make out with your letter . BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY.

 

[jasonco]

What type of AR10 bolt is being used? If it's a high pressure small firing pin bolt, there's a serious problem? If it's a standard, low pressure AR10 308 bolt, that's a typical issue.

 

[Peter Morton]

Yikes! I have some Norma WT I've shot in 7-08 and 30-06 with no issues. And it's accurate stuff.

 

[Darryle]

What type of AR10 bolt is being used? If it's a high pressure small firing pin bolt, there's a serious problem? If it's a standard, low pressure AR10 308 bolt, that's a typical issue.

It appears just from the pictures you have a standard bolt. The firing pin may be a little long as well. Should measure 3.375" overall length.


Pull your firing pin, should be .062" to .065"ish depending on how much use its seen. Anything bigger is not recommended with anything remotely on the higher pressure side.

I use the JP high pressure bolts in most all the large frame ARs, 6.5 Creedmoor was the worst offender.

 

[bert2368]

What type of AR10 bolt is being used? If it's a high pressure small firing pin bolt, there's a serious problem? If it's a standard, low pressure AR10 308 bolt, that's a typical issue.

With all due respect, please read the OP a little more carefully.

Note the bit about checking function with TWO OTHER TYPES OF FACTORY AMMUNITION, WITH SAME PROJECTILE WEIGHT AND SIMILAR CLAIMED VELOCITIES, AFTER observing the condition of the NORMA brass. And that these two tests did not produce pierced primers, dramatic primer craters or brass flow into ejector cutout. And that the other ammunition ejected the brass normally, not several feet further away and spread out over a much wider angle.

I didn't mention it earlier, but these other two types of factory ammunition also didn't exhibit large amounts of vertical stringing. They were Federal 140gr. SP "Nontypical Whitetail" which is claimed as @ 2,750fps and Federal 140gr. Fusion BSP which is claimed as @ 2,725fps. The NORMA 140gr. SP is claimed as @ 2,756fps. I will attach pictures of THEIR case heads and again post what the NORMA case heads looked like for your edification & enjoyment.


I've had the rifle for a couple of years. I've fired 6 different commercial loads from 4 different manufacturers. I've also done 3 different load workup strings for hand loading, running loads up to near book max with two 140gr. conventional (Speer and Hornady) and 120gr. solid Copper Barnes TTSX bullets.

None of the commercial loads OR my handloads have EVER pierced primers, dramatically cratered primers, loosened primer pockets, blown out a primer, completely flattened the curve out of the edges of primer cups or flowed brass into ejector cutout of bolt. Let alone doing several of those things on every shot.

Incidentally.

The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) for 6.5CM is 62,000 psi piezo

The C.I.P. maximum pressure for 6.5CM is 63,091 psi piezo.

SAAMI MAP for .308 Win is 62,000 psi piezo.

The original spec given for 7.62x51NATO is 50,000psi- BUT! this spec is from the olden days of Copper crusher tests. In reality, 7.62x51 NATO pressure is just about exactly equal to a piezo measurement of 60,000.

There is not enough ddifference between ANY of these specifications to matter, given correctly made case head brass and primer cups. Buy "high pressure bolts" and extra skinny firing pins if you feel like it, it can't HURT.

The firing pin hole size, even if it WERE too large would not cause brass to flow into my ejector cutout.

Federal 140gr. Fusion:

Federal 140gr. Nontypical whitetail:

Norma 140gr. Whitetail: Note the two cases on left, you can see the primer anvils!

I placed the side with ejector marks closest to camera on this picture. I can see it clearly in real life, it's somewhat visible in at least the center 3 cases even in the photo.

Once again, NONE of the other loads fired show similar ejector marks.

 

[lancetkenyon]

I wonder if these were shot in a bolt gun, would you find the same concerns? Gas guns can't handle the same pressures as bolt guns do.

Looking at the FC brass, I think I still see case head marks. But Federal primers are known to be some of the harder primers, so might not show as much cratering. The Norma primers are still rounded, just have wicked puckers or pierced.

 

[badthirtyone]

I wonder if these were shot in a bolt gun, would you find the same concerns? Gas guns can't handle the same pressures as bolt guns do.

Looking at the FC brass, I think I still see case head marks. But Federal primers are known to be some of the harder primers, so might not show as much cratering. The Norma primers are still rounded, just have wicked puckers or pierced.

I was wondering that, as well.

 

[bert2368]

"Gas guns can't handle the same pressures as bolt guns do"

No. Gas gun systems are designed to operate at a particular pressure- and even more importantly, with a particular PRESSURE CURVE. Correct pressure at gas tube = gun runs without short cycling or battering itself cycling excessively hard. A modern gas gun made by a reputable maker can **** well handle correctly made rounds at SAAMI spec.

You can overload hand loads run in a bolt gun a bit more before they rap you in the teeth with the evidence that you're way over pressure for the round is what you meant to say. Since you're the operating system and don't have to notice until bolt lift becomes real hard or impossible. Or the blown out primers jam the bolt or magazine. Or you get a lot of gas (and maybe some metal?!) going in an unpleasant direction...

 

[436]

I'm with the guys that think it's possibly a bolt/gas gun problem... Occam's razor.
Good luck.

 

[Deleted member 48126]

OP, we were shooting factory loaded Norma 130 grain match, small primer, 6.5 CM out of my buddies Gradeous on a defiance action last year. His 3rd shot, of the 20 rounds, blew up his trigger tech. Rifle was fine but we immediately dropped it off at a local smith who did a once over and installed a new trigger. We saw the first shots fired the brass showed signs of over pressure. We just chalked it up to small rifle primers and switched to Hornady ELDMs. But that was January 2021.

Anyway, my point is that this maybe a long term, reoccurring issue with Norma ammo. Our brass looked similar to yours.

With a sample size of two, I don't want to make an hard rule that Norma is bad ammo though.

 

[MW204]

I've had factory ammo that was way too hot, but at the time that was my first real high power rifle, a custom thumbhole 7mm Express, as they called it then. I bought 10 boxes of ammo so I would have some brass to reload with and at the same time, I bought an RCBS Jr reloader. This cartridge was new to everyone that I hunted with, that's why I bought it, and it even seemed more powerful than a 7 mag, but being the novice I was that did not set off an alarm. By the end of the season I had shot up those 10 boxes of ammo but on my last hunt, the extractor broke. (no I did not bring up any of these issues with my smith, who put on a new extractor for me)
I started reloading after getting some instructions from my smith, I cleaned the brass, lube the cases on an RCBS case lube pad. Once all this was done I put my first case in and it was extremely hard to resize. I thought I needed more brass lube so I put more on the cases, yes they dimpled, my smith told me to back off the lube. I don't remember how many cases I resized, but one day while pushing down the handle I broke it off the reloader where it screws into the camming action, I told y'all it was really hard to resize. I took the press to a welder I knew he welded the handle back on along with welding a gusset on the top side to help withstand the pressure. (yea another screw up I know)
Not too long after that my brother called me and said he was reading in his NRA magazine that Remington had a recall on 7mm Express ammo and he gave me the lot numbers and every box I had was on the recall list. (no internet back then) I contacted Remington and sadly I can't remember the outcome of that but I took my rifle to my smith and explained all I told y'all above and he checked everything out and told me that my chamber was oversized by a lot. He could not believe how hard it was to resize the brass, he chewed on me for not telling him about the problem a lot earlier. He sent the rifle to Remington twice, it got lost in the mail both times-grrrrrr but all they did was reset the barrel back and sent it back, the brass was still hard to resize. After the second time my smith took it to an authorized repair shop 60 miles away, he set the barrel back again and this time the resizing was easier but not right.
Knowing what I know today I should have made Remington replace the barrel after my smith did his bluing work on it. Back then deep shiny barrels were the thing.

My point to the book above, if it doesn't seem right, and your brass sure doesn't seem right at all, then I would find a bolt gun and shoot at least one round through it to see if it does the same thing. If it does you know 100% that the ammo is loaded too hot and is going to cause some major issues down the road if you keep shooting it. btw when you shoot it in a bolt gun bring along a chronograph and see how fast it's pushing the bullet, that too will tell you if it's a really hot load. I would also pull a bullet and measure it to see if the bullets are oversized, not likey, but it won't take long to check that out.
Good luck.