Very first ladder test, take a look.
- Thread starter grit
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Nothing prettier than a classy slock with some nice burl. Don't think the Boyd stock qualifies. At best, it's cool. But at least I can take it afield.
I've got my test rounds loaded. I haven't had time to shoot. Going to have to wait 'til saturday. I got to wondering what point accuracy starts to suffer from fouling. I know all guns will be different. But, take a guess for me. How often should I clean while accuracy testing / load development? Ten shots? I shot three foulers, then all 17 shots for the ladder test. Should I have stopped for a cleaning in the middle?
I've got my test rounds loaded. I haven't had time to shoot. Going to have to wait 'til saturday. I got to wondering what point accuracy starts to suffer from fouling. I know all guns will be different. But, take a guess for me. How often should I clean while accuracy testing / load development? Ten shots? I shot three foulers, then all 17 shots for the ladder test. Should I have stopped for a cleaning in the middle?
"How often should I clean while accuracy testing / load development? Ten shots? I shot three foulers, then all 17 shots for the ladder test. Should I have stopped for a cleaning in the middle?"
This is the inherent flaw in the ladder test, and the dilemma which my OCW round robin testing seeks to remedy. With 18 shots (6 different charge weights, three of each) fired in round robin sequence at 6 different bullseyes, you'll be spreading the error factor of a fouling or warming barrel, or even condition changes to some extent, across the entire charge weight range. So a single charge weight is not so likely to be advantaged, or disadvantaged by extenuating circumstances. Then just find the three consecutive groups which tend to share the same POI, and choose the center charge for your OCW (Optimal Charge Weight).
For more about what I mean by "round robin" go to my website, linked at the bottom of this page...
Dan
This is the inherent flaw in the ladder test, and the dilemma which my OCW round robin testing seeks to remedy. With 18 shots (6 different charge weights, three of each) fired in round robin sequence at 6 different bullseyes, you'll be spreading the error factor of a fouling or warming barrel, or even condition changes to some extent, across the entire charge weight range. So a single charge weight is not so likely to be advantaged, or disadvantaged by extenuating circumstances. Then just find the three consecutive groups which tend to share the same POI, and choose the center charge for your OCW (Optimal Charge Weight).
For more about what I mean by "round robin" go to my website, linked at the bottom of this page...
Dan
If you start loosing accuracy within 20 rds, sure, clean it, but ive got about the roughest barrel of anybody on here ill bet... a factory savage, and even it will make it to 20... usually 25-27. I know it won't go to 40 though. On the recent Pdog trip with Jim, the dogs played gleefully under my reticle at 600-800 while I chunked ammo at them. After the cleaning that night, they werent so happy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif But I digress.... Know your rifle. If it needs to be cleaned, clean it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
grit:
Looks like the rifle has had very few rounds fired through it. Also looks like a factory winchester, correct?
If a 'dedicated' barrel breakin process wasn't used, I'd say you're still in the breakin phase of things.
A factory barrel is a factory barrel is a factory barrell. Google on Dan Lilja for breakin process and darn good look at the difference between hand polished custom and factory.
I'd start your accuracy tests with a clean bbl. That is all copper and powder fouling gone. Squeeky clean.
I'd also load a double batch of your first accuracy load. Shoot the first batch. If they are bonkers compared to the second batch then you know that you need some foulers. Also a couple of repetitions of this you'll know how many foulers, if any, are needed.
Log all shots, to help with any trending.
Then just keep on doin' what you're doin' till you're satisfied. It'll be so much fun you'll nearly forget that you are supposed to 'harvest' things with the rifle.
After about 3000 rounds you'll have that barrel worn out and you can start all over again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
green788:
Need a little further insight into your process.
I've studied your process and think I understand what you are getting at. My problem is that at up to 350-400 yds I'm doing well. But out at 740 and beyond the velocity spread of my loads (matched neck turned cases, same powder weight, .003 max out of round) cause enough variation in drop that I miss my full size steel coyote on a regular basis.
Will the OCW process help with this or is it meant to get me to this point....
Thanks
Roy
Looks like the rifle has had very few rounds fired through it. Also looks like a factory winchester, correct?
If a 'dedicated' barrel breakin process wasn't used, I'd say you're still in the breakin phase of things.
A factory barrel is a factory barrel is a factory barrell. Google on Dan Lilja for breakin process and darn good look at the difference between hand polished custom and factory.
I'd start your accuracy tests with a clean bbl. That is all copper and powder fouling gone. Squeeky clean.
I'd also load a double batch of your first accuracy load. Shoot the first batch. If they are bonkers compared to the second batch then you know that you need some foulers. Also a couple of repetitions of this you'll know how many foulers, if any, are needed.
Log all shots, to help with any trending.
Then just keep on doin' what you're doin' till you're satisfied. It'll be so much fun you'll nearly forget that you are supposed to 'harvest' things with the rifle.
After about 3000 rounds you'll have that barrel worn out and you can start all over again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
green788:
Need a little further insight into your process.
I've studied your process and think I understand what you are getting at. My problem is that at up to 350-400 yds I'm doing well. But out at 740 and beyond the velocity spread of my loads (matched neck turned cases, same powder weight, .003 max out of round) cause enough variation in drop that I miss my full size steel coyote on a regular basis.
Will the OCW process help with this or is it meant to get me to this point....
Thanks
Roy
Roy,
Yes factory winchester. Rounds? Well, I've got 200 once fired. Maybe shot a bit more, I didn't save.
Now you mention it, I didn't break this one in. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Think I should now?
I'll read the info. I read some years ago. I did break ins for a few, didn't do them for a few also.
I'll post the accuracy test results.
Yes factory winchester. Rounds? Well, I've got 200 once fired. Maybe shot a bit more, I didn't save.
Now you mention it, I didn't break this one in. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Think I should now?
I'll read the info. I read some years ago. I did break ins for a few, didn't do them for a few also.
I'll post the accuracy test results.
Roy,
Generally the OCW or "round robin" work-up gets you to a stable, predictable charge weight. From that charge weight, you can then use other techniques to further tighten ES. Seating depth changes improve accuracy, and primer changes will often help to improve extreme spread. Of course you're already aware of this--I just mention this for the sake of others who may read this thread who aren't up to speed on such things...
The last OCW load I worked up at 100 yards shot MOA at 1000 yards the first time I tried it, and in good wind conditions it has stayed under 1.5 MOA at 1060 yards in times since. Other loads have performed well at 1K also, perhaps needing only a primer swap or depth adjustment, or segregated brass, etc.--but not a powder charge adjustment. This isn't to say that altering the powder charge can't make a 2 MOA 1000 yard load go to 1 MOA--just that I believe it is best to leave the powder charge alone--once properly identified as Optimal, and tune the load then in other ways. I say this because if you do alter the powder charge to tighten a proven OCW load, you'll move to the edge of the "sweet spot" and be forever "walking the tightrope" to accuracy. Better to leave the powder charge be, and make your accuracy gains via other means (seating depth, primer swaps, neck tension, etc.)...
My long range .308 load which was identified at 100 yards via the OCW method has been a consistent MOA performer at 600 yards. (Note that when I say consistent MOA performer, I'm talking about under ideal conditions. Testing in calm winds and good light allows me to know what the load and rifle are capable of, and then I can go shoot under "not so ideal" conditions and know that blown shots are likely all my fault--not likely the fault of the rifle or load recipe).
Basically, if you believe in the virtue of the ladder test, the OCW test is simply a way to do the same thing with more reliable, statistically superior results. Then, as you mention, you can move on to the more intricate steps of accuracy improvement. You'll be building higher on the firmer foundation of a very stable powder charge, if that makes sense.
I've seen the standard Audette ladder test produce good results--but just as often I've seen it yield confusion. "Did I pull shot number 9? Heck, shots 7, 8 and 10 are all nearly touching. Hmmm..." You get the idea. But with OCW round robin, you've got three shots at each charge weight, and the error factor--courtesy of the round robin firing sequence--is spread as evenly as possible across all charge weights being looked at.
Thanks for the interest,
Dan
Generally the OCW or "round robin" work-up gets you to a stable, predictable charge weight. From that charge weight, you can then use other techniques to further tighten ES. Seating depth changes improve accuracy, and primer changes will often help to improve extreme spread. Of course you're already aware of this--I just mention this for the sake of others who may read this thread who aren't up to speed on such things...
The last OCW load I worked up at 100 yards shot MOA at 1000 yards the first time I tried it, and in good wind conditions it has stayed under 1.5 MOA at 1060 yards in times since. Other loads have performed well at 1K also, perhaps needing only a primer swap or depth adjustment, or segregated brass, etc.--but not a powder charge adjustment. This isn't to say that altering the powder charge can't make a 2 MOA 1000 yard load go to 1 MOA--just that I believe it is best to leave the powder charge alone--once properly identified as Optimal, and tune the load then in other ways. I say this because if you do alter the powder charge to tighten a proven OCW load, you'll move to the edge of the "sweet spot" and be forever "walking the tightrope" to accuracy. Better to leave the powder charge be, and make your accuracy gains via other means (seating depth, primer swaps, neck tension, etc.)...
My long range .308 load which was identified at 100 yards via the OCW method has been a consistent MOA performer at 600 yards. (Note that when I say consistent MOA performer, I'm talking about under ideal conditions. Testing in calm winds and good light allows me to know what the load and rifle are capable of, and then I can go shoot under "not so ideal" conditions and know that blown shots are likely all my fault--not likely the fault of the rifle or load recipe).
Basically, if you believe in the virtue of the ladder test, the OCW test is simply a way to do the same thing with more reliable, statistically superior results. Then, as you mention, you can move on to the more intricate steps of accuracy improvement. You'll be building higher on the firmer foundation of a very stable powder charge, if that makes sense.
I've seen the standard Audette ladder test produce good results--but just as often I've seen it yield confusion. "Did I pull shot number 9? Heck, shots 7, 8 and 10 are all nearly touching. Hmmm..." You get the idea. But with OCW round robin, you've got three shots at each charge weight, and the error factor--courtesy of the round robin firing sequence--is spread as evenly as possible across all charge weights being looked at.
Thanks for the interest,
Dan
