Twist rate, how fast is too fast?

Mathews Diehard

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So I know ideally we want a stability factor (Sg) of just over 1.5, and generally over that isn't an issue until you get to a certain point and torque gets too high.

I know a lot depends on the bullet and probably how sharp the lands are, but at what point have you started seeing flyers or jackets being peeled off? For example a stability factor of 5? 6?
 
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KRPMs =(720*MV/TW)/1000
Cal adjusted KRPM limit* =(0.308-CalDia)*238+290

*Limited to .308 and smaller because I never seen a larger cal pushed to RPM failure, so I could not define or validate larger.
Failures are independent of Sg
Thank you.
Any idea where those numbers came from for the limit? Just seems kind of odd to me that bullet weight has no bearing and the 238 and 290 just look kind of arbitrary. Not being an *ss, serious question.
 
Any idea where those numbers came from for the limit?
The math is mine, and yes it's simpleton.
~30yrs ago, overbore cartridges were very popular for a while.
22-243 wildcats, with 90gr VLDs, presented a razor thin balance between stability (at req'd 7tw), and bullet blow-ups.
It was so common, and so consistent, that it could easily be predicted within 100fps MV.
The 90 SMKs consistently failed 10krpm higher than Berger VLDs, but that's only 100fps of margin, so my defining of failure seemed useful as conservative where Berger VLDs failed.

So if easy to predict 22cal VLD failures, I figured it might be as easy with other cals.
I reviewed and watched all failures reported at every shooting forum of the time(I looked at it for ~5yrs). With overbores being so popular, it was pretty easy to find failures in every cal through 30. It turned out that the math held well with a cal adjustment.
Also, this is with appropriate twist rates for heavy for cal jacketed bullets. A condition where a risky balance would show up for overbores capable of causing failures. It was NEVER a problem for normal capacity cartridges and proper twist rates per cal.

It's not actually about RPMs alone. It's about the friction/heat energy applied to provide the RPMs for high bearing area bullets.
I assume that even thicker jacket Target VLDs would fail where SMKs would also fail (~10 KRPMs higher than my formula predicts).
Notice little to no chatter about failures from any bullets today? There will be soon, as overbores are coming back, along with even longer bullets. My math will likely hold up just the same again,, but I'll be watching.
 
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It's going to depend entirely on the construction of the bullet. Cup and core will not take as much as solids.
My 6.5 Ultracat has a 1-6" twist, and runs the 124 grain Hammer Hunter 3960 fps. Roughly a 2.8 Sg. No issues with this bullet but a similar weight cup and core is unlikely to hold up.

If I read correctly JBM says an Sg of 1.3-1.5 is desirable for flight.

An article by Lytz indicates that 1.3 will lose about 6% of it's BC when compared to an Sg of 1.5.

Terminal performance depends somewhat on what you intend to terminate, and from what angle.

Some of the African DG cartridges do yield those higher numbers. I think the game involved explains that.

Personally I think an Sg of 2 is a good place to be. Not dogmatic or an absolute.


Velocity helps a little, the 156 Berger can reach that 1.5 stability in a 26 Nosler 1-8" twist, the smaller 6.5's not likely.
 
This is a most interesting formula and will be tested on 1 in 8 twist barrels with very fast loads with heavy / high BC bullets
 
The math is mine, and yes it's simpleton.
~30yrs ago, overbore cartridges were very popular for a while.
22-243 wildcats, with 90gr VLDs, presented a razor thin balance between stability (at req'd 7tw), and bullet blow-ups.
It was so common, and so consistent, that it could easily be predicted within 100fps MV.
The 90 SMKs consistently failed 10krpm higher than Berger VLDs, but that's only 100fps of margin, so my defining of failure seemed useful as conservative where Berger VLDs failed.

So if easy to predict 22cal VLD failures, I figured it might be as easy with other cals.
I reviewed and watched all failures reported at every shooting forum of the time(I looked at it for ~5yrs). With overbores being so popular, it was pretty easy to find failures in every cal through 30. It turned out that the math held well with a cal adjustment.
Also, this is with appropriate twist rates for heavy for cal jacketed bullets. A condition where a risky balance would show up for overbores capable of causing failures. It was NEVER a problem for normal capacity cartridges and proper twist rates per cal.

It's not actually about RPMs alone. It's about the friction/heat energy applied to provide the RPMs for high bearing area bullets.
I assume that even thicker jacket Target VLDs would fail where SMKs would also fail (~10 KRPMs higher than my formula predicts).
Notice little to no chatter about failures from any bullets today? There will be soon, as overbores are coming back, along with even longer bullets. My math will likely hold up just the same again,, but I'll be watching.
You seem to know alot about it..you must be good with mathematics too.Not being sarcastic.
I have a question...wanting to build new bolt action 6mm ARC to shoot long distance. What would be the best length of barrel and twist rate? Thanks in advance
 
I know this for sure when using fast twist barrels….the smaller the bore, the less number of grooves and the smoothness of those lands/grooves will show up a bullet that is either, too fragile, or has voids or other imperfections like an unevenly thick/thin jacket.
I had serious problems with a 3 groove 22 cal barrel with a 7" twist…it was NOT the barrel causing the issue per se', but the entire package, the barrel, number of grooves and the bullet used. Switching bullets cured the issue…so, the choice is yours, run a fast twist but choose components that are compatible with each other. I have seen very few issues with twist rate once you get in 6.5mm territory, but it does still happen with CERTAIN fragile bullets.

Cheers.
 
My formula would not work where there is not enough energy to destroy bullets.
2 scenarios:
7tw, 6BR, 95gr VLDs at 3000fps, 309 KRPM
8tw, 243AI, 95gr VLDs at 3400fps, 306 KRPM

They both hit my KRPM Limit of 305 for 24cal, and you could find a few 243AIs killing bullets.
But you're unlikely to find a 6BR killing ANY bullets. It's just not enough heat and obturation energy.

So it is an important caveat to my formula that it only applies while at the correct twist for the bullet.
The correct twist in this scenario,, for this bullet, is 9tw.
You'd have to drive the bullet at 3850fps in 9tw to hit my 305 KRPM limit, and that is plenty of energy applied (for sure).
You would see failures right there.
 
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