Thoughts on antler restrictions

[birddog 68]

It's not hard, average width of ears in my area in alert position is 20-22". I don't know a game warden in the affected area that will issue a citation for an honest mistake/violation. It's actually written in the law that they can't for x number of years after it was stated. Easy to tell the difference in a 3 year old with a 17" outside spread and a mature deer with a 20" plus.

They ran a trial for the restriction in 5 counties for 5 years prior to instating it, and made the results public. Check ins were mandatory. 1% of bucks harvested didn't meet criteria.

Is it perfect? No. But my cousins and their $50 bushnel binos don't have trouble picking out legal deer from not.

I'm sorry but I'm in agreement with skipglo with the inside spread being difficult to judge. Yes if he's looking in your direction it's fairly easy to judge but this isn't a shot that I like to take.
If they would implement something like @Mark37082 has in his state with spread OR points would make more sense to me but I don't make the rules I just follow them.

 

[bluedog69]

The issue is that there are plenty of guys happy with taking any legal buck and most of them generally only hunt the rifle opener and they are the ones shooting the on the fence bucks. So if you only hunt a day or two a year that little buck might be the only chance you get to take a buck. Additionally driving is common here so many times the deer are moving by and you have a short window to decide and take your shot. This can unfortunately lead to mistakes.

And it doesn't take much to be out, a 7/8" brow tine or a 3-1/4" spike can get you fined. We have a spike on camera with spikes that curve outwards and lay behind his ears and I could easily see him getting shot by mistake for a doe as I've made the mistake while reviewing game camera pics.

The game commission advertises turning in your mistake kill for a $25, what they don't tell you is that they retroactively declare it negligence and bump that fine to $300 to $500.



There are absolutely declining numbers here in PA, we went from a high of 1.3 million hunters down to around 850,000 now.

So if you have lost 35% of your hunters have you seen a big jump in the deer herd? Bucks getting bigger?
Here is what I am getting at. The government tells you that hunter numbers are dropping drastically. Do you beleive them? Hunting pressure down that much?

 

[scott0303]

Here is a study on antler size. https://deerassociation.com/strike-3-for-the-myth-of-the-genetic-cull-buck/

 

[bluedog69]

I'm sorry but I'm in agreement with skipglo with the inside spread being difficult to judge. Yes if he's looking in your direction it's fairly easy to judge but this isn't a shot that I like to take.
If they would implement something like @Mark37082 has in his state with spread OR points would make more sense to me but I don't make the rules I just follow them.

I can't see how any spread measurement could ever be used accurately. The 4 points on one side has worked great for MO on whitetails. No we don't have a bunch of 7 year old 6 pointers running around now. I agree that spread is impossible and dumb to use as a criteria.

 

[bluedog69]

They also use dmap data from hunting clubs and land owners. There age and nutrition studies are generally controlled environments. One very interesting study they darted and gps collard several bucks. A couple of those bucks roamed quite a bit. Including one who regularly swam the miss river.

This buck did like many young bucks from small town MO. He stayed in his home town til it got dark then went to the Gentry bar and grill looking for tail then headed over past Albany and Bethany looking for more tail. This one just never came home.... 180 some miles.

Had this buck not left home I may have gotten him on trail camera someday.

The Mysterious Adventure of an Exceptional Buck | National Deer Association

deerassociation.com

 

[birddog 68]

Here is a study on antler size. https://deerassociation.com/strike-3-for-the-myth-of-the-genetic-cull-buck/

Interesting read

 

[Panhandlin Pat]

I'm sorry but I'm in agreement with skipglo with the inside spread being difficult to judge. Yes if he's looking in your direction it's fairly easy to judge but this isn't a shot that I like to take.
If they would implement something like @Mark37082 has in his state with spread OR points would make more sense to me but I don't make the rules I just follow them.

The rule is outside spread, not inside. This is on the plains as well. I typically spot deer well over a mile away before going on a stalk. Up close, I can tell you in seconds of hes legal or not. The rule fits the terrain, it's not state wide. I've personally never taken a buck that didn't fit the criteria as 90% of mature deer fit the criteria. And I've never passed on a mature deer.

Young 3 points and 4 points are very common. This rule is to protect them.

Just saying, for my area, the rule is well welcomed.

 

[birddog 68]

This is on the plains as well. I typically spot deer well over a mile away before going on a stalk.

Ok I can see how this would work much better in the plains compared to a more dense forest.

 

[bluedog69]

Ok I can see how this would work much better in the plains compared to a more dense forest.

Yes out in you see them before they see you country you get to judge. Many bucks in MO don't get shot at due to the fact you didn't get a chance to if they were legal or not. When a deer gives you 5 seconds to get a shot in cover or In between cover you often miss the shot trying to see 4 on one side. Which in reality means most are to small. Now we saw a nice 6 pointer this year that May be lucky to have made it. He was a 6 but brow less. Probably 17" spread. But he was only a two year old. Hope he gets brows and makes it 4 more years. He will have a giant frame.

 

[bonie]

I can't see where it could hurt, and there is plenty of proof it improves mature buck numbers. say at least 4 on one side to start.

 

[CMP70306]

It's not hard, average width of ears in my area in alert position is 20-22". I don't know a game warden in the affected area that will issue a citation for an honest mistake/violation. It's actually written in the law that they can't for x number of years after it was stated. Easy to tell the difference in a 3 year old with a 17" outside spread and a mature deer with a 20" plus.

They ran a trial for the restriction in 5 counties for 5 years prior to instating it, and made the results public. Check ins were mandatory. 1% of bucks harvested didn't meet criteria.

Is it perfect? No. But my cousins and their $50 bushnel binos don't have trouble picking out legal deer from not.

Are you talking whitetail or mule deer as I can probably count the number of whitetail bucks I've seen with a 20" spread on one hand.

So if you have lost 35% of your hunters have you seen a big jump in the deer herd? Bucks getting bigger?
Here is what I am getting at. The government tells you that hunter numbers are dropping drastically. Do you beleive them? Hunting pressure down that much?

We absolutely see less pressure in our area, the farmer's field used to be a hot spot due to the camps across the way driving and pushing the deer over to us. We haven't had a busy field year in a few years, just one or two deer trying to sneak back into cover at daylight. We do hear a bunch of shooting but that's predominantly because we can now get 6 doe tags and a lot of guys are sitting on fields so you get a bunch of shots for 1 or no deer killed.

We also used to get a big bump of deer around lunch time during rifle season as guys hunting the neighboring property would drive a big herd of 10 to 20 deer into the pines. We would then drive it, kill a few more and send the rest to someone else. However that also stopped occurring in the past couple years and it seems like less people are around moving deer so when they get bumped off the property nobody bumps them back.

 

[asd9055]

It definitely helps manage deer populations in areas that were prone to over harvest of buck deer and under harvest of does.

It hurts private ranch lands that are already managing their herd for quality by making it illegal to kill cull bucks.

My county has a 13" minimum spread so this buck is allowed to breed more trash bucks that look just like him.

I have a similar buck on my place. Can't shoot it. It will never exceed the 13", so it will be spreading his genes for a few years.

 

[bluedog69]

Are you talking whitetail or mule deer as I can probably count the number of whitetail bucks I've seen with a 20" spread on one hand.


We absolutely see less pressure in our area, the farmer's field used to be a hot spot due to the camps across the way driving and pushing the deer over to us. We haven't had a busy field year in a few years, just one or two deer trying to sneak back into cover at daylight. We do hear a bunch of shooting but that's predominantly because we can now get 6 doe tags and a lot of guys are sitting on fields so you get a bunch of shots for 1 or no deer killed.

We also used to get a big bump of deer around lunch time during rifle season as guys hunting the neighboring property would drive a big herd of 10 to 20 deer into the pines. We would then drive it, kill a few more and send the rest to someone else. However that also stopped occurring in the past couple years and it seems like less people are around moving deer so when they get bumped off the property nobody bumps them back.

The growing big buck trend has stopped a lot of the deer driving in many places. Why chase them when the neighbor will shoot them. Don't spook or chase them and they have a better chance at living on your place and making it to next year.

Back in the 70's 80's and 90's we used to assemble groups of 100 guys amd get set up and run drives. Now no one I know does that anymore. Tread lightly don't bump them to the neighbor.

 

[birddog 68]

Deer drives are apparently are a thing of the past. Partially for the reason above about worrying about pushing the deer to a neighbor. It's fine for doe but trying to count points when a buck is running just ain't a good plan.
I personally enjoyed the team effort to execute a good deer drive.