Technique advise for Mtn Rifle

[bkondeff]

Very happy with a recent purchase, Remington Mtn Rifle in new SS configuration in .280. Found it likes 168 Berger VLD with 56.5gr of 7828 using Norma brass. I have shot enough .5 moa groups at 200 yds to know that is what the gun is capable of. I have a Mtn Goat tag to fill with this rifle and happy enought that I don't want to work too much more on load development(bullet seating/primers) but it may be capable of even more.

My question is that, I noticed the whippy barrel requires me to be very consistent to how I attach myself to the rifle. on the bench I use moderate downward pressure with my off hand just forward of the bottom metal. A new Timney trigger helps as well vs the 4lb X-mark Pro. Still not matter what I do that front end hopps straight up at the shot.

In field positions I can not duplicate the hold. I have used two techniques and want feedback from those with expereience here. First, I have placed my off-hand(left) over and just forward my grip hand with slight downward pressure. I try and be very consistent with the amount of pressure and the direct downward pressure. Second, I have tried also placing my off-hand directly on top of my scope, again using direct downward pressure. I use no noticeable thumb pressure on my shooting hand primarily using the 3 fingers on my right hand to pull directly back into my shoulder. I don't try and eliminate the jump of the barrel, but just use a consistent approach.

First, any feedback on wether I should or should not put downward pressure? If so, where?

Second, does it make sense to use a break on such a thin barrel to help with the jump? I use a Boss on my A-bolt 7mmRM, which I like very much, other than the horrible noise. I orignally was against them, but they are pleasant to shoot and I very much like seeing the impacts at longer ranges when hunting alone.

I don't intend to use such a light gun for all my hunting, I actually hope to do a custom 7mm-300WM and will look for about a 9lb finished product, but for goat hunting, sheep hunting, and even a Whitetail carry rifle this seems like a good gun but I want to shoot it to it's potential.

 

[HARPERC]

Yes, a break helps all of them.

You don't say if you're using a Bipod, bags, jacket, or a front rest.

My Bipod shooting is always better in the dirt than off a bench, or concrete pad.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

The easiest, and most effective, thing you could do is use 140 grain bullets...out to 600 yards there is very little benefit to to the 168's.

Lighter bullets will reduce recoil a great deal...140's would kill any game you mentioned at 600 yards...how far do you plan on shooting?


Or...split the difference and use 150's or 160's...I went with 160's in my 280 AI (not a lightweight, 9 lbs.)...but 140's would serve me just as well, hunting mostly whitetails...the only reason I went with the 160's is because I like to put 2 holes in critters I shoot.

Adding muzzle brakes and such to a dedicated lightweight rifle defeats the purpose (adds weight)...you'll get the most benefit from loading it for its purpose, and not trying to push it too far, in my opinion.

That covers the muzzle jump...

For the holding the unsteady lightweight rifle still...in the field, use the methods you mention when you can....and what ever you have when those are not an option...

I gave up on lightweight rifles myself, not knocking yours at all, or anybody else's...I'd rather carry a 9 lb. rifle than shoot a 6 lb. rifle...but thats just me.

 

[bkondeff]

Yes, a break helps all of them.

You don't say if you're using a Bipod, bags, jacket, or a front rest.

My Bipod shooting is always better in the dirt than off a bench, or concrete pad.

Typically, depending on terrain, yes I have a bipod and then lay over my pack, typically resting the center of the rifle of the rear on it. In the field you typically have to take what is given you to an extent. This is a goat hunt so angle will be a serious factor, meaning my short bipod may be replaced with my stoneypoint tripod adjusted for height, or nothing at all and just my pack. Recently scrapped my 10lb Eberlestock Dragonfly for a 4lb KUIU, which also isn't as good a rest. I do always carry (2), Z-pad(s) strapped outside my pack to use for glassing, but also because they help make a better support for shooting from.

Again, I'd ask for feedback on what to do with my "offhand", during the shot, is it okay to put downward pressure on the barrel/Scope/stock?

PS I don't intend on changing to lighter bullets, 168gr bullets at 2750 isn't going to whip less than 140gr bullets at 2950 enough to go from .617bc to .500bc and give up the energy downrange, as I do intend to kill elk with this if needed. I tried both 150 and 160 gr TSX and Accubonds and the gun liked the 168's best. My son's .270MR whips as well with 140gr accubonds.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Again, I'd ask for feedback on what to do with my "offhand", during the shot, is it okay to put downward pressure on the barrel/Scope/stock?

PS I don't intend on changing to lighter bullets, 168gr bullets at 2750 isn't going to whip less than 140gr bullets at 2950 enough to go from .617bc to .500bc and give up the energy downrange, as I do intend to kill elk with this if needed. I tried both 150 and 160 gr TSX and Accubonds and the gun liked the 168's best. My son's .270MR whips as well with 140gr accubonds.

I understand, and expected you'd feel that way...but it was the best advice I could give .....admittedly biased from my dislike of light rifles.

As for the downward pressure...its OK on the scope, I do this with my wife's 270 (M70 Featherweight) when shooting from the bench at the range...but stay off the barrel, doesn't take much of any kind of pressure on a barrel to really mess things up...especially on a pencil barrel....be wary of fore end flex in the stock (touching the barrel)

I don't find holding the rifle down necessary from prone, but then...I'm pretty uncomfortable shooting from a bench anyway...never saw a bench that fit me yet I guess.


Your rifle seems to be an accurate one so you should be able to come up with some sort of solution...Good luck on the goat hunt!!!

EDIT: I use shooting sticks myself...and can hold my own using them as long as I can sit down...less cantankerous than a bipod, for me anyway...will get prone if I can though...I shoot better prone with my pack for a front rest than using any other method, probably because I grew up shooting that way almost exclusively...1/2 empty sacks of feed are as good as it gets for a rifle rest, but too heavy to carry, lol.

 

[WildRose]

Bullet selection is irrelevant. Heavier bullets though mean increased energy, increased recoil, muzzle flip etc all else being equal.

There's a reason you don't see any 6lbs benchrest rifles.

Heavier is steadier and steadier is more accuracy all else being equal again.

If you want to reduce muzzle flip you either increase the weight or put a muzzle brake on it.

I don't suggest downward pressure from above but a pull downward is fine.

Rifles are not that heavy usually. Holding it up isn't a problem, holding it down is not going to cause the same problems.

Most of your issues can be solved very easily with a good side discharge brake that has top ports as well but none on bottom.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Very happy with a recent purchase, Remington Mtn Rifle in new SS configuration in .280. Found it likes 168 Berger VLD with 56.5gr of 7828 using Norma brass. I have shot enough .5 moa groups at 200 yds to know that is what the gun is capable of. I have a Mtn Goat tag to fill with this rifle and happy enought that I don't want to work too much more on load development(bullet seating/primers) but it may be capable of even more.

I don't try and eliminate the jump of the barrel, but just use a consistent approach.

First, any feedback on wether I should or should not put downward pressure? If so, where?

I don't intend to use such a light gun for all my hunting, I actually hope to do a custom 7mm-300WM and will look for about a 9lb finished product, but for goat hunting, sheep hunting, and even a Whitetail carry rifle this seems like a good gun but I want to shoot it to it's potential.

Its crazy you post this as I have the same exact mountain rifle SS but in 3006. With my loading I have NOT been holding any down pressure during shooting and I have noticed the gun likes to jump. I have been getting some strange random flyers which I was not sure if it was me or if the gun simply hates that load...but now I am wondering if it was due to the rifle bounce you indicate. I will have to give holding the rifle a shot to see what happens with groups.

 

[bkondeff]

I saw and actually responded on your post. I don't get the range of jump that you mentioned, 3moa. I will say to be "consistent" in your shooting form. I think you have either a serious flinch or a mechanical problem. I've had guns do the 2moa overnight shift before and it's always been either a loose screw(action, boss), or a bedding issue, typically after I fiddled with the gun.

My son developed a flinch with his .270 MR years ago and his groups could be 8 moa (ouch). That thin barrel is whippy. My friends5.7lb Kimber .280AI is **** whipy as well.

I'd have a friend, who can shoot and isn't afraid of a recoil, shoot that gun and find out how it acts then.

 

[bkondeff]

Bullet selection is irrelevant. Heavier bullets though mean increased energy, increased recoil, muzzle flip etc all else being equal.

There's a reason you don't see any 6lbs benchrest rifles.

Heavier is steadier and steadier is more accuracy all else being equal again.

If you want to reduce muzzle flip you either increase the weight or put a muzzle brake on it.

I don't suggest downward pressure from above but a pull downward is fine.

Rifles are not that heavy usually. Holding it up isn't a problem, holding it down is not going to cause the same problems.

Most of your issues can be solved very easily with a good side discharge brake that has top ports as well but none on bottom.

How do I pull down(assume you mean using strap), when I'm prone over my pack? I'd think all I could/would do is to pull sideways.

Can you put a break on a barrel this thin? I would in a heartbeat if I could. Always have my hearing protection now while hunting anyway. Would remove it when hunting whitetails.

 

[Bigeclipse]

I saw and actually responded on your post. I don't get the range of jump that you mentioned, 3moa. I will say to be "consistent" in your shooting form. I think you have either a serious flinch or a mechanical problem. I've had guns do the 2moa overnight shift before and it's always been either a loose screw(action, boss), or a bedding issue, typically after I fiddled with the gun.

My son developed a flinch with his .270 MR years ago and his groups could be 8 moa (ouch). That thin barrel is whippy. My friends5.7lb Kimber .280AI is **** whipy as well.

I'd have a friend, who can shoot and isn't afraid of a recoil, shoot that gun and find out how it acts then.

I feel pretty rock steady so although I have flinched I really think I eliminated that from my equation...I just did large OCW test last night. You can read that in a recent thread I entered this morning. It is not a 3MOA issues anymore. If you look in the recent thread you will see targets where I have 2-3 shots sometimes touching and then one shot about 1.5MOA away. When you shoot your rifle that is .5MOA...if you dont hold it down...what do your groups go to? Does the WHOLE group open up or do you get a scenerio like me where maybe a couple rounds group and then you get what looks like a flyer?

 

[WildRose]

How do I pull down(assume you mean using strap), when I'm prone over my pack? I'd think all I could/would do is to pull sideways.

Can you put a break on a barrel this thin? I would in a heartbeat if I could. Always have my hearing protection now while hunting anyway. Would remove it when hunting whitetails.

There will be some positions in which it's more difficult in field shooting. That's one problem with field shooting we all face because we just have to make due with whatever we have for rests and such. On a pack the downward pressure is not going to be a big issue because the pressure won't generally be on the end of the forearm, rather spread out along the full contact lenght between pack and stock.

Check with your gunsmith. I just had one installed on my light 300 Rum Mod 70 which has a damned whippy barrel as well.

You can search around online, there are several good felt recoil calculators available where you can see just how big of an effect the weight of the rifle has on felt recoil.

All that energy has to go somewhere when you pull the trigger.

 

[WildRose]

I feel pretty rock steady so although I have flinched I really think I eliminated that from my equation...I just did large OCW test last night. You can read that in a recent thread I entered this morning. It is not a 3MOA issues anymore. If you look in the recent thread you will see targets where I have 2-3 shots sometimes touching and then one shot about 1.5MOA away. When you shoot your rifle that is .5MOA...if you dont hold it down...what do your groups go to? Does the WHOLE group open up or do you get a scenerio like me where maybe a couple rounds group and then you get what looks like a flyer?

A lightweight free recoiling rifle is going to give you inconsistent results because it's going to be very difficult to get everything else exactly the same for each shot unless you are extremely disciplined in your form.

 

[Bigeclipse]

A lightweight free recoiling rifle is going to give you inconsistent results because it's going to be very difficult to get everything else exactly the same for each shot unless you are extremely disciplined in your form.

Yeah I can understand that. Ive just been trying to work up a 1 MOA load for this rifle and I am pretty much at my witts end haha. I have had many times where I will shoot 3-5 shots (always letting rifle cool 5 minutes inbetween shots) and I would get a few shots at .25MOA-.75MOA and then bam...a random chaotic flyer. At first I thought it was me flinching. After yesterdays OCW test, I know it's not flinching ( I really concentrated on not flinching). And again it happened...you can see where 3 of the 8 powder loads where 2-3 shots are between .25-.75MOA and then a random flyer about 1-2MOA away, this was done at 100 yards. So it's either form, rifle bouncing, or the rifle is just a bad shooter. It has an aluminum bedding block so it could be it needs to be fully epoxy bedded or something, BUT if it is indeed because I am not holding the front down like this OP then full bedding may not help that.

 

[WildRose]

Yeah I can understand that. Ive just been trying to work up a 1 MOA load for this rifle and I am pretty much at my witts end haha. I have had many times where I will shoot 3-5 shots (always letting rifle cool 5 minutes inbetween shots) and I would get a few shots at .25MOA-.75MOA and then bam...a random chaotic flyer. At first I thought it was me flinching. After yesterdays OCW test, I know it's not flinching ( I really concentrated on not flinching). And again it happened...you can see where 3 of the 8 powder loads where 2-3 shots are between .25-.75MOA and then a random flyer about 1-2MOA away, this was done at 100 yards. So it's either form, rifle bouncing, or the rifle is just a bad shooter. It has an aluminum bedding block so it could be it needs to be fully epoxy bedded or something, BUT if it is indeed because I am not holding the front down like this OP then full bedding may not help that.

Aluminum block or not I'd bed under the chamber and around the recoil lug at a bare minimum.

I'm to the point I won't bother shooting a rifle at all without first bedding it as I've found going through a couple of dozen rifles over the last decade or so I'm going to end up having to do it anyhow.

Eliminate all the variables you possibly can before trying to work up a load and you'll have far less frustration.