Ok, Here is what I've got: Savage LRP .243. I have two good loads, one is 95 gr sierra match king over imr 4350 and 105 gr Amax over 4350. Both loads shoot anywhere from 1/4" to 1/3" on a good day if I show up. I've been reloading for about a year now. My methods may be a little crude but I think I'm covering the bases. I play with seating depth. I have regular rcbs FL die set, I'm using winchester brass which I sort and weigh. I trim cases, debur flash holes and have just started learning how to neck turn. I felt like I should have seen some results from the neck turning but really didn't. Is it realistic to think I can improve from where I'm at? Do I buy competition dies? Better brass? I'm consumed with this quest for one hole...it's driving me crazy!! Another thing is that my buddies are starting to get the bug and buying accuracy. They are buying rifles shooting factory match ammo and getting .400-.500" groups with no work envolved, they don't even reload. I can't imagine what their gear will do with reloads. So all that being said I'm going crazy trying to stay ahead of them. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated.
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royinidaho
Well-Known Member
0.25 - 0.33" on a regular basis is pretty darn good.
Costs go up exponentially as group size goes down. You're doing plenty good with what you're doing.
Your words "if I show up" indicates to me that "you" should show up more often. That is the rifle is showing up every time, what about you.
All it takes is dollars and skill. Skill being the larger factor.
Just say'n....
Costs go up exponentially as group size goes down. You're doing plenty good with what you're doing.
Your words "if I show up" indicates to me that "you" should show up more often. That is the rifle is showing up every time, what about you.
All it takes is dollars and skill. Skill being the larger factor.
Just say'n....
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
I'm going to assume your shooting three shot groups. With five shots this good, I'd leave it along, but with two or three exceptions:
* you might try a few different primers, and even a different lot number from the same brand. It's a simple change, and sometimes yields good results. Also while on the subject of primers, are you reaming the primer pockets? Seating primers consistently can help group sizes a little. I use the K&M tool, but Sinclair and a couple others are very good. I like Federal primers, but also only use certain lot numbers. Have had some good luck with CCI, and even some Winchesters.
* How close (or should I say far away) are you to the lands when seating bullets? Also how consistent is your bullet seating? I have found that a 6mm bullet seems to like .005" or less distance to the lands. My last 6mm went from .550" five shot groups to a solid .380" by changing the seating depth to .0025" off the lands (87 grain Hornaday).
* Have you ever compared an unsized once fired case to a sized case. I use a NECO gauge with a .0005" indicator. Also use a home built one with a similar indicator. You may not like the results! I use mostly Forster dies, and I think they are about as good as it gets. When you install the sizing die, are you aligning it? I highly recommend Fred Sinclair's hand book on reloading.
***************
Assuming your cases are very good after being sized, I'd measure the over all length of each case. Find the shortest one, and trim all the cases back to where the shortest case just cleans up square. Sounds like a lot of extra work, but I'm from the school of thought that thinks a case lip that's not square with the centerline will hit the rifling a little off center. I trim with a Wilson, after fighting thru several others.
Now for the deal breaker! Lets hope you have a big bunch of cases. Some guys like weighing cases and a few others go by case volume. I moved over to volume a few years back after weighing a bunch of brass. Some use water, and others use powder. I like fine grained salt. Brass scales differently from lot to lot even though the volume is identical. Learned this from by weighing identical cubes of solid brass. I often do a test at the range by reloading the same case five times and indexing it when it goes into the chamber. That's how I learned to shoot better.
Next step is to see if the scope is in a bind (rings are not in line with each other). Are the base, or bases tight. Maybe even needing to be bedded. Loosen the action screws and re-torque them properly. Try a little talcum powder in your front rest. Leather bags can be sticky. A bipod will never compete with a good front rest. Lastly if all this fails, you might want to have the recoil lug bedded.
gary
.25" I am happy
Have you stretched that Amax load out to 600 or 1000 and saw how it performs there? How are your SD's? that could be your next challenge.
at that time I get bored with the rifle and start another one.
switchbarrel time. Try a 6.5 creedmore or maybe a 6.5 saum
or build you a real benchrest rifle where you can explore your reloading obsession. try a 6mm BR savage with a straight taper barrel and a shehane tracker stock. Should be able to shoot 1's and 2's easy with that.
he is a savage guy. All he needs to do to have another caliber is change the barrel and maybe the bolt head.
Those savages are shooting good!
you can build a superb savage for $1500 and you don't need a gunsmith to do it.
That would only pay for a bat action. you can easily have $3500 to $5000 in a custom rifle.
Tricky, I currently use cci and win primers, so far I can't tell a measurable difference. I do clean primer pockeckets but do not uniform. My seating depth is .005 from lands. Keep in mind I use the Hornady OAL gauge so I don't know how precise it is but I am consistent in loading to same length. As far as shooting distance goes I was able to shoot out to 650 yds last weekend for the first time ever...wow! That was fun. I only shot the 95 gr Sierras. We were shooting at steel on a friends farm with a little wind. I didn't take any of the 105's with me but have shot them out to 400 yds, I was getting about a three " group. Not that good but I was pleased at the time. Not sure if they will stay stabilized out to 600-800-1000 yds. Find out soon.
When I said if I show up, that is what I mean. Some days I shoot really well, for me, and some days not so good. .204" is best group with the 95's but on a off day it may be .600". The important thing is I know what it can do but I don't repeat it every time. Granted the weather conditions change so the environment changes. Some days I'm more relaxed than others...so many variables. I have no intentions of competing on any level but amongst friends but I feel like I can do better. I would like to take my best loads to the local rifle tube, a more controlled environment, just to see what they will do. 6 months ago I would have been elated with where I am at now but to be honest I feel as if I know less now than I did then even though I have acquired so much more knowledge. I recently visited and applied for a membership at a gun club that has 600 yd range. They have a list of guys who have shot sub 1" groups at this distance...impressive!! I would like to be on that wall but right now that seems like a moonshot. Another problem is, like everyone else, is time. I work and only get to shoot weekends. I don't know anyone who does this so pretty much everything I'm learning is what I read. My ES on my best loads are about 40-50fps. At a 100 yds this does show as bad but down range that is going to bite me. Lots of refining to do.
When I said if I show up, that is what I mean. Some days I shoot really well, for me, and some days not so good. .204" is best group with the 95's but on a off day it may be .600". The important thing is I know what it can do but I don't repeat it every time. Granted the weather conditions change so the environment changes. Some days I'm more relaxed than others...so many variables. I have no intentions of competing on any level but amongst friends but I feel like I can do better. I would like to take my best loads to the local rifle tube, a more controlled environment, just to see what they will do. 6 months ago I would have been elated with where I am at now but to be honest I feel as if I know less now than I did then even though I have acquired so much more knowledge. I recently visited and applied for a membership at a gun club that has 600 yd range. They have a list of guys who have shot sub 1" groups at this distance...impressive!! I would like to be on that wall but right now that seems like a moonshot. Another problem is, like everyone else, is time. I work and only get to shoot weekends. I don't know anyone who does this so pretty much everything I'm learning is what I read. My ES on my best loads are about 40-50fps. At a 100 yds this does show as bad but down range that is going to bite me. Lots of refining to do.
Gunpoor
Well-Known Member
Shooting one-hole groups is the next step for you in shooting. The key to shooting this small of a group in my experience, which is limited to one 243Win rifle, is in the hold of the gun when firing. I have shot a five round group so small with that rifle I couldn't measure it, as in one single hole. The trick is to use heavy sandbags with the rifle rested in them so that you only have to lightly hold the wrist grip and lightly put your shoulder behind the rifle to catch the recoil. Any stress felt in the stock of the rifle transfers into the action/barrel and causes deviation. With an accurate rifle I can shoot .25 MOA off of a bi-pod, on a good day, but can't get one hole without the heavy bags. I used a lead sled for a short time and couldn't get under .5 MOA. JMHO
BTW, I don't see any advantage in turning case necks for a standard caliber cartridge unless the cases are just junk.
BTW, I don't see any advantage in turning case necks for a standard caliber cartridge unless the cases are just junk.
Gunpoor, I've tried with a sled as well, didn't notice much difference. Still had movement from breathing and heart beat. I think the main advantage to the sled is initial setup time in terms of target acquisition...not having to wait as long for breathing and heart rate to settle. Don't get me wrong, I still have the occasional flyer or two and could shoot a 3/4" group or worse but for the most part when I have those I usually know if it's me, like everyone else does but when it feels good and it's a flyer I blame it on a mistake I made reloading the round. If I can improve my reloading techniques and create a better round than I can eliminate that one of many factors in the quest for consistent accuracy.
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
You will burn your barrel out trying to improve .25-.33 accuracy. Then you'll really need a straight jacket.
If you want groups in the .1s or less, build a bench rifle chambered in a bench cartridge.
Yes you can have a hunting rifle shoot in the .1s but it's rare and takes a lot of work.
I've been there. I know the madness. I got lucky one day and shot a 3 shout group that was truly .308" wide using a 308 win at 100 yards. That's it. Out of 10s of thousands of groups, that's it. My buddy thought I missed the other two shots. Then we went to 300 yards and I nailed down a group .314". Then he shut up about missing the other two. To be honest, I think the one hole group was more luck than anything.
I've had a lot that were in the .1s and even a few slightly less but never another one hole group.
.25 should be a ragged hole. That's one hole enough.
M
If you want groups in the .1s or less, build a bench rifle chambered in a bench cartridge.
Yes you can have a hunting rifle shoot in the .1s but it's rare and takes a lot of work.
I've been there. I know the madness. I got lucky one day and shot a 3 shout group that was truly .308" wide using a 308 win at 100 yards. That's it. Out of 10s of thousands of groups, that's it. My buddy thought I missed the other two shots. Then we went to 300 yards and I nailed down a group .314". Then he shut up about missing the other two. To be honest, I think the one hole group was more luck than anything.
I've had a lot that were in the .1s and even a few slightly less but never another one hole group.
.25 should be a ragged hole. That's one hole enough.
M
ghost
Sounds like you are really serious about this stuff. For me reloading that perfect ammo is just as much fun as shooting it. I spend a lot more time at the reloading bench then I do shooting. Sounds like your rifle can do the job.
Now I am going to tell you what works for me. There is a huge difference in opinions on all this stuff. You will just have to wade through it all and pick what works for you.
In my 6mm long range load my ES runs around 10 and my SD's are less than 4.
I use a co-ax press, forster match dies, lapua brass, CCI benchrest primers and usually berger VLD bullets although recently I have found the Lapua scenar L to be a very good bullet. Using the co-ax improves runout and using lapua brass eliminates much of your brass prep.
This is a typical 5 shot group in that gun at 100 yrds.
Two things I have found to be key in reducing your SD's. Neck tension consistency and accurate powder charges.
consistency is the real key to everything. A good set of dies will help. There is no limit to the different methods of neck sizing.
Do you want to full length resize? Ask the guys a the range that are shooting those super small groups what dies they use. Could be they are using custom dies made to fit their chamber.
Have you tried just neck sizing? Bushing die? Collet die? with or without the expander ball. Wilson neck sizing die and an arbor press. the methods are endless.
another thing that is very important in consistent neck tension is annealing. As that brass is fired and reloaded that brass gets work hardened. I anneal every three firings. For me it really helps
In conclusion its what works for you. Consistency is what you are looking for.
Now powder charges. I will get lots of flack for this one but you just read about the long range competition shooter and see how many use a electronic powder dispenser or throw charges with a powder measure and how many weigh every charge. I found that using a digital scale like the gempro 250 and holding my charge variation to less than 0.05 grains improved my SD's quite a bit. On my long range loads I weigh and trickle every charge.
Now for seating depth on my long range target loads. I use either 105 berger VLD's or Lapua scenar L 105's. I jam them 0.01 into the lands. I wouldn't do that with a hunting load because most likely if you try to remove the cartridge without firing you will leave the bullet in the barrel and fill your action with powder.
again I say this works for my. You have to find what works for you.
Now as for holding your gun. If at all possible on the range let the gun free recoil. Set it on the rest and only touch the trigger. If you have to put some pressure on the gun to maintain control during recoil you must be consistent. very difficult to do. As you are shooting a group and it is looking good you will catch yourself bearing down on it trying to make that group. Bad sign we all do it. Just get up and walk away. take a few deep breaths talk to the range master. then go back and finish the group. Remember there is no time limit.
Sounds like you are really serious about this stuff. For me reloading that perfect ammo is just as much fun as shooting it. I spend a lot more time at the reloading bench then I do shooting. Sounds like your rifle can do the job.
Now I am going to tell you what works for me. There is a huge difference in opinions on all this stuff. You will just have to wade through it all and pick what works for you.
In my 6mm long range load my ES runs around 10 and my SD's are less than 4.
I use a co-ax press, forster match dies, lapua brass, CCI benchrest primers and usually berger VLD bullets although recently I have found the Lapua scenar L to be a very good bullet. Using the co-ax improves runout and using lapua brass eliminates much of your brass prep.
This is a typical 5 shot group in that gun at 100 yrds.
Two things I have found to be key in reducing your SD's. Neck tension consistency and accurate powder charges.
consistency is the real key to everything. A good set of dies will help. There is no limit to the different methods of neck sizing.
Do you want to full length resize? Ask the guys a the range that are shooting those super small groups what dies they use. Could be they are using custom dies made to fit their chamber.
Have you tried just neck sizing? Bushing die? Collet die? with or without the expander ball. Wilson neck sizing die and an arbor press. the methods are endless.
another thing that is very important in consistent neck tension is annealing. As that brass is fired and reloaded that brass gets work hardened. I anneal every three firings. For me it really helps
In conclusion its what works for you. Consistency is what you are looking for.
Now powder charges. I will get lots of flack for this one but you just read about the long range competition shooter and see how many use a electronic powder dispenser or throw charges with a powder measure and how many weigh every charge. I found that using a digital scale like the gempro 250 and holding my charge variation to less than 0.05 grains improved my SD's quite a bit. On my long range loads I weigh and trickle every charge.
Now for seating depth on my long range target loads. I use either 105 berger VLD's or Lapua scenar L 105's. I jam them 0.01 into the lands. I wouldn't do that with a hunting load because most likely if you try to remove the cartridge without firing you will leave the bullet in the barrel and fill your action with powder.
again I say this works for my. You have to find what works for you.
Now as for holding your gun. If at all possible on the range let the gun free recoil. Set it on the rest and only touch the trigger. If you have to put some pressure on the gun to maintain control during recoil you must be consistent. very difficult to do. As you are shooting a group and it is looking good you will catch yourself bearing down on it trying to make that group. Bad sign we all do it. Just get up and walk away. take a few deep breaths talk to the range master. then go back and finish the group. Remember there is no time limit.
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Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
One must keep in mind the shooter is getting .40" (or less) groups out of an out of the box .243 Savage. How many other brands can make that claim? How many of us would love to start out in the sub half inch range with a rifle? Count me in as one! It's common knowledge around here that I don't exactly have a love affair with the .243, but that's just me and some other folks.
The .243 is known to start falling off in the 800 to 1200 round area. Always have to keep that thought in mind. Still I wouldn't get excited unless I were shoot two or three hundred rounds a month. The fix is easy, and really shoots well.
I asked the OP if he had ever compared his cases before and after sizing. Important? You bet it is. This can give you a vague idea what the chamber looks like. I would ream the primer pockets, and trim the cases square. Might and might not gain anything. I have in the past, but that's me. Forget neck turning on a factory chamber. Just a waste of energy unless you see a lot of wall run out.
I think my next adventure would be to simply re-torque the action screws. Could make some trigger adjustments while the action is out of the stock (also a good time to inspect the recoil lug bedding). Some will suggest a re-crown on the muzzle end. Might help, but doubt it.
If all looks to be fine, then I'd at least buy the Forster seater. Simply as good as you can get without buy a custom seater. I would also order on the VLD plug at the same time. But if you have access to a lathe, them just modify it. Assuming your cases came from the same lot number, then build twenty identical cases. Start out with once fired cases that are the same length.
The .243 is known to start falling off in the 800 to 1200 round area. Always have to keep that thought in mind. Still I wouldn't get excited unless I were shoot two or three hundred rounds a month. The fix is easy, and really shoots well.
I asked the OP if he had ever compared his cases before and after sizing. Important? You bet it is. This can give you a vague idea what the chamber looks like. I would ream the primer pockets, and trim the cases square. Might and might not gain anything. I have in the past, but that's me. Forget neck turning on a factory chamber. Just a waste of energy unless you see a lot of wall run out.
I think my next adventure would be to simply re-torque the action screws. Could make some trigger adjustments while the action is out of the stock (also a good time to inspect the recoil lug bedding). Some will suggest a re-crown on the muzzle end. Might help, but doubt it.
If all looks to be fine, then I'd at least buy the Forster seater. Simply as good as you can get without buy a custom seater. I would also order on the VLD plug at the same time. But if you have access to a lathe, them just modify it. Assuming your cases came from the same lot number, then build twenty identical cases. Start out with once fired cases that are the same length.
yep
that .243 is a real barrel burner. Of course at one time it was a very popular long range target caliber. His results are some indication why. But it is a savage. Burning out the barrel just gives him a good excuse to slap on the next one. No gunsmithing required!
I am building me one for a switchbarrel. Savage precision target action, 28" straight taper barrel in 6.5 creedmore and another barrel in 6mm BR, Shehane tracker stock. Should be an accurate one.
Way I see it you headspace the barrel, glue the barrel nut to the headspaced barrel with blue locktite, inlet in stock where there is room for the barrel nut when the barrel is unscrewed then you can change barrels without even taking the action out of the stock. One guy is doing this but his barrels sure are ugly.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/02/larry-racines-switch-barrel-system/
Ok, thanks for all the info. To answer a few of the questions I will start by saying that I don't anneal or just neck size. I have been taking baby steps. I really haven't played with primers either. I honestly think that if I don't quit doing load development that this barrel will be gone as, after figuring it up today, I have approx 700 rounds through it. My loads are not that hot though. My velocity for the 95 gr sierra averages 2973 fps and 2855 fps for the 105's with 39.5 and 39.0 gr charges respectfully so it's not like I'm torching the barrel. Simply getting my best accuracy at these charges. I do think that I definitely need to get more precise dies and even a scale as I still weigh charges with rcbs beam scale. I do weigh cases with a digital scale from Frankford Arsenal. It got good reviews so I bought it but haven't weighed charges with it. I also know that I should neck size only and will prob buy a neck sizing die. The primers I use are cci-200 and win lg rifle primers, should I try a different primer? What do you all recommend?
