Some pics of groups, and some questions...results from this morning...

[lovdasnow]

Ok, I just back from a morning of shooting. It was a little windy/gusty, but not to bad. My questions are about what I can expect from my factory rig as far as group size goes. Some info on me, I'm pretty new to reloading, so I'm still working on that stuff, but quickly getting the hang of it.

First pic is from my .223, it's out of my AR-15 at 100yds...5 shots, the low shot is my first shot of the day. the next 4 are in the same hole.

Ok, here are the groups in question... these are all out of my factory Rem 700CDL 300rum, i bedded it, trigger job, and muzzle brake, thats it, I'm starting to wanna send it in to get worked over by kirby or shawn... But, I thought I would check here first. Take a look at these pics and tell me what you think as far as groups go..

These are all shot at 210yds. this ones spread is 1.9"

here's another...

here is another at 1.9" across

this one is 4 shots with the flyer down and right, these are the 200AB's. it was 1.6" until the flyer which opened it up to 3.8"..

this one is 1.6"

Couple questions....
1. What can I acctually expect from my factory stick? Should I keep working on the groups?

2. what the heck causes flyers /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif???? My hold was the same, and I'm not flinching at all(thanks to the brake, although my ears hurt..) I know this question has a million differant answers, but is there anything obvious I'm missing?

I'm not super happy with these groups, but I think I may have unrealistic expectations.

thanks for your help...This is fun though, I'm just getting going on this long range shooting stuff, and so far it's been a blast!

 

[captdavid]

Re: Some pics of groups, and some questions...results from this mornin

I assume it's a sporter. Those groups, as near as I can figure with an ocassional flyer, are around MOA. What more do you want from a sporter. I guess that with a bit of tuning one might be able to squeeze another 1/4" or so out of it. That's a 2" smaller group at 800yds or one inch smaller from the center of your groups. If you are that good /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gifYOU THE MAN /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif, CAPT DAVID

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Well from the looks of it, your low on powder charges. Were the groups shot at 100 or 200 yards?? My particular 300 RUM shoots good with more powder. My 200g ab and smk loads shot very well at 92g h-1000 or 95g retumbo. My 220g loads shot well at 88g h-1000. try bumping up your powder charge and see what they do. Your rifle should be more accurate then what I see. All I have is a rem LSS and its got .5 groups at 100, and 2" at 500, and 4" at 800 with nothign more then trigger job and bedding. I would say try a couple more loads before sending it off.

 

[lovdasnow]

Re: Some pics of groups, and some questions...results from this mornin

they were shot at 200yds. Thats what I was thinking..I have shot 92.2gr of retumbo behind a 220smk, and that was too hot! only shot one round, sticky bolt, extracter mark, etc...

I'll try the 220's with a little more umph behind them, and see what happens. I really need to get a chrono!

I would like a little more accuracy, I hope I'm not expecting to much, and hope I get a shooter like yours rem..

 

[royinidaho]

Re: Some pics of groups, and some questions...results from this mornin

Without the flyers it seems to be hanging under MOA which isn't shabby at all. To refine it more may take some work which I suggest that you could do most of yourself. If you send it off, its been my recent experience, that you will have no idea of when it will get back. Right now I'm without anything to shoot so all I can do is talk about it./ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Some of these thing include:

Look at the fired cases. Is the ring just ahead of the case head even all the way around the case? In other words is the chamber concentric? Probably is but its easy to check.

Are the cases trimmed to uniform length? and chamfered inside and out?

Are cases about the same weight? Usually don't make that much different but sometimes it does.

Look at loaded cartridges:
Do you spin them to check for concentricity? I'm comfortable with +/- 0.001 but things still shoot good with much worse than that most times. Even as much as 0.01 or worse.

If you can see the wobble when they are rolled on a flat table top there may be some concern.

You said that you bedded it but I'd check that too. If no fancy measurement equipment just hold the rife vertical, resting the butt on the bench, alternately tighten and loosen the front and rear mounting screws. You shouldn't feel much barrel movement. Zero movement is the best but a little may be ok.

Ensure the stock screws are not touching the sides of the holes. Also look at the recoil lug channel. The lug shouldn't be touching at the front and some don't like it touching on the sides either.

Also, barrel break-in is important. If a proper break-in procedure was used, good. If not, it may take a while for it to get as accurate as its going to.

I may be way overboard here as I don't know your experience. (Please take no offense.) If you've done all of these things then great. Besides I'm thinking that its shooting pretty well, though it is most likely that it can shoot better.

 

[screech]

I have an lss in a 300rum and it shoots right around .7-.8 of an inch at 100yards. I have a 243 in a sporter barrel and it shoots sub .5 inch at 100 yards. Just depends

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Re: Some pics of groups, and some questions...results from this mornin

Ok, for 200 yard groups, like everyone else has said, its shooting about MOA. Which is good for a factory sporter. I expect my factory sporters to shoot at least 3/4 moa before I consider them a 500-600 yard rifle. I would say just do a little bit more load deveolopment and you should get 3/4 MOA. Now my experiences with factory rifles inquire that you should expect a flyer pretty regularly. Shoot 4 shot groups and if 3 of the 4 are good, then I would say you got a good load. How many animals are going to stand around for 4 shots anyways??? You should get the job done on the 1st, if not the 2nd, and most definately the 3rd shot anyways. Its been my experience that flyers with factory barrels happen quite often, theres not much you can do about it. Your rifle should be capable of 3/4 moa though with a tuned load. My guess is you just haven't found the sweet spot yet for your loads.

 

[lovdasnow]

Re: Some pics of groups, and some questions...results from this mornin

thanks for the replys...
Roy, no offence taken at all, thanks for the things to check.
Cases are trimmed to length, and chamfered/deburred. I have not weighed cases so far. The ring around the neck looks pretty uniform, but not perfect.

I will check the bedding again. recoil lug does have room in front and on the sides. No wobble in bullets after loading. I did break the barrel in.

I think I will start shooting 4 shot groups, and that may help a little more.

How often do you guys clean your big guns while shooting? is there a certain # of shots before you clean? kind of a benchmark people go by, I'm usually shoot smaller caliber guns that can go a long way between cleanings.

Thanks again, I'll keep working on it, I would like to get a little more out of it... any other advice out there?

 

[41mag]

Re: Some pics of groups, and some questions...results from this mornin

My bud's Sendero was doing about the same thing as yours is. We shot various loads and still had about the same results. Then he picked the most consistant powder which I think was H-1000, at around 92grs. He started with the bullet out just off the lands and started bumping back in around .005 increments. Not much was noticable in the groups, then in one more adjustment, whammo, one hole group. We tried a couple of more adjustments in, and the groups opened right back up. The only thing he has done with his was have Kirby install a Holland brake.

I am not sure just what it was he settled on as an OAL, but I do know that the 185gr Bergers are running 3200+ and shooting bug holes out to 500yds. He has already taken a hog out to 550 with them and they flat knock their socks off.

He is wanting to try the AB's soon, but hsan't had time the past couple of weekends. If your interested, shoot me a e-mail and I will get back to you with what we come up with.

Also you better keep those ears covered, that ringing will deminish over time if you don't, but the tone in your wife's voice will increase at about the same rate. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I shot my friends "ONCE" without ear protection, and thought my nose was going to start bleeding from the concussion, not a good thing. Remember it's not the deer at 450 yds your needing to hear slip through the woods, it's the bear at 20 coming in from behind. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[royinidaho]

Re: Some pics of groups, and some questions...results from this mornin

Comment 1: What Mike/TX said

Comment 2: How come no one ever hits the coin? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hey Mike: Why not post what you and your bud find out? That's good stuff about the seating depth adjustments!

 

[bailey1474]

Re: Some pics of groups, and some questions...results from this mornin

I'm shooting the 240 SMK w/85 gr of Retumbo and that is not hot by any means. Bump here up and I'll bet the groups start shrinking.

 

[lovdasnow]

Re: Some pics of groups, and some questions...results from this mornin

thanks mike, and yes I would love to know what he comes up with. I need to go buy a stoney point tool for checking the lands, and I think I need an ogive gauge???
anything else I need? My main concern is that I want them to fit in the mag, so I'm limited as far as that goes.

also, I think I will try and shoot some coins, sounds fun. Only problem is when you hit em they go flying and are hard to find..

Ok, I'm going to keep working on this gun a lot more, and see what I can do with it. I'll keep you guys posted.

Thanks for the info mike, I'll keep checking here waiting for more info, or you can email me anything you want...
[email protected]

thanks, jon

 

[Bart B]

[ QUOTE ]
what the heck causes flyers?

[/ QUOTE ]There are no flyers. Everything that effects each bullet's trajectory determines where it strikes. If the hole doesn't appear where we expect it to, something we (position + trigger control), the equipment (rifle & sights + ammo) or the atmoshpere (wind + air density) made it go where it did. Something wasn't perfect in the preperation of and execution of that shot.

So, we gotta figure out what each of these three areas wasn't 'perfect' or very close to it. Each one gets sometimes hard to evaluate, but it can be done. Shooting accuracy is the reduction of all shooting variables to as close to zero as possible.

There are no flyers. Just examples of what happens when something among all those variables added up to make that shot go where it did. It's my opinion that people cause more undesireable shot hole locations than equipment or the atmosphere does.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Re: Some pics of groups, and some questions...results from this mornin

I got the coin idea covered. Put a piece of scotch tape over the coin, that way it wont go flying when you hit it. I have several nickels with holes in them and it worked just fine taped to the target. I dont know about there being no flyers with factory barrels. Factory barrels are sometimes junk, they are the limiting factor in my opinion 90% of the time. Custom barrels seem to not throw bullets out as much, so obviously theres a reason for it vs. a factory barrel.