Side Arm for Grizzly Country

[Pdvdh]

I've had, and observed, too many failures to feed from semi-autos. Unreliable pistols, shotguns and rifles.
The guy I know that got his face munched ended up in that situation when his Remington 30-06 semi-auto rifle jammed after his second shot. Bear stood erect on rear feet, growling from about 35yds. He wasted one round over the bear's head, thinking that it would scare it off. Bad move... The shot precipitated a full blown charge. He got one more shot off as the bear bored down on him, and the next cartridge jammed into the chamber at a 45 degree angle.

After that, the bear flattened him like a pancake. Without the S&W revolver in a chest holster, his carcass would most certainly have been added to the moose carcass the boar was camped on ~35yds away.

I won't ever carry a semi-auto for bear defense. They don't always run from firecrackers.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Buffalo Bore

"DANGEROUS GAME" 10MM AUTO - Mono-METAL
190 gr. Mono-Metal FN @ 1,200fps / ME 607 ft-lbs
20 Round Box

DANGEROUS GAME HEAVY 44 MAGNUM - Mono-Metal
265 gr. Mono-Metal WFN @ 1,425 fps / ME 1,195 ft lbs
20 Round Box

again a blowout.

Only a blowout when you can put those bullets where they count. Chances are....You can't. Not when a full charge bear attack is underway. One, maybe. Two doubtful. By the third round, your his dinner. That's a blowout. Now those insignificant little 10mm bullets are looking **** good when 8-10 make it on target and wreck that bears plans. It's funny how the power of big bore pistols make people feel like its there security blanket from anything. Reality check, there not. Put some range time in with a few different pistols and check back in afterwards. Shoot at some fast moving targets coming straight at you. See how confident you feel after that. You may very well be a Jerry Miculek. Then again, you may very well have a different take on which gun will make you feel confident and safe.

 

[VLD Pilot]

And I thought I had proven that a 10mm is way behind a 44 Magnum when it comes to stopping power/penetration or any other measurement ?

Not even close

 

[swe123]

460 Rowland
255gr, 1300 fps, 907 ft-lbs

 

[VLD Pilot]

I don't think anyone has to have had any experience with a bear to prepare themselves for an encounter. In fact, it's the idiot that hasn't had an encounter with one yet but spends time in bear country and doesn't prepare for it. Like saying why carry concealed if you've never been mugged, robbed, attacked or car jacked ? Pretty ignorant. I hope it doesn't take a bear charge, attack or worse for someone to prepare by gunning up with a sidearm when in bear country. I hear alot of people mocking bear spray but it kept a sow from making it up my tree when bow hunting bears one year. Cubs got scared and she got my wind and up my tree she came. Two shot of bear spray turned her around. I had a sidearm but didn't need it. Nothing wrong with the less lethal option. It's a 15 second encounter that I can't explain and never want to happen again. Couldn't imagine a face to face encounter with a Brown/Grizzly bear. Train for that moment even if it never happens.

 

[Deleted member 115374]

I've had, and observed, too many failures to feed from semi-autos. Unreliable pistols, shotguns and rifles.
The guy I know that got his face munched ended up in that situation when his Remington 30-06 semi-auto rifle jammed after his second shot. Bear stood erect on rear feet, growling from about 35yds. He wasted one round over the bear's head, thinking that it would scare it off. Bad move... The shot precipitated a full blown charge. He got one more shot off as the bear bored down on him, and the next cartridge jammed into the chamber at a 45 degree angle.

After that, the bear flattened him like a pancake. Without the S&W revolver in a chest holster, his carcass would most certainly have been added to the moose carcass the boar was camped on ~35yds away.

I won't ever carry a semi-auto for bear defense. They don't always run from firecrackers.

Yea, it seems like things have a tendency to go bad in a hurry when you need them to go right in the worst way. I am a 460SW revolver guy for bears for just that reason, one less thing you have to worry about. I have had 3 close encounters with grizzlies and fortunately they went the other way. I had a charge by a black bear sow w/ 3 cubs 2 yrs ago and she stopped fortunately. I was charged and chased across a bridge by a buffalo bull in Yellowstone in 88', my fault, I got too close for a picture 15 yds. I have been charged by Elephants in Zimbabwe twice - one was a juvenile male in Musth, the other was a group of cows w/calves that we got too close to, it happened before we knew they were there. Again we were able to run and they gave up the chase. The last was by a wounded cape buffalo in 08'. We tracked 5 bulls from sunup til about noon, caught up with them as they were just about to go into a Mopane thicket. We stopped and gave them about 45 min. to lay up as my PH thought they would do at midday in the shade. We checked the wind constantly with ash bags as we butt crawled to the edge of the thicket. The problem was there was a screen of Mopane about 10 yds wide and 15 yards deep that was about 50 yds from the main thicket. We didn't realize it until we got there. So my PH is glassing the main thicket looking for buffalo when he sees movement on the other side of the screen 15 yds. from us. It turned out to be a tickbird on the back of one of the bulls that we thought went into the thicket. After determining he was probably the only one that close to us, we found a small window that I could shoot him in the shoulder/lungs while he was laying there. I did, he jumped up and came around the screen of brush on the right side and I shot him on the point of the onside shoulder as he was lining up me, hitting bone and lungs. He stumbled and spun away like he had enough, I went to chamber another round, the round jammed nose up at an angle in my CZ 375HH, about that time I hear my PH say shoot him again he's gonna come again. The bull was now coming around my PH's side of the thicket to my left. PH asked me if I was jammed I said yes, he shot the bull under the chin with his 458 Lott but missed the spine. By this time I had cleared the round with my finger and shot the bull thru both front shoulders and he collapsed. Before I went on that trip I cycled every single round thru my rifle to try and identify any potential problems w/ feed issues. When I got home I took the gun and rounds to my smith and told him what happened, he tried to duplicate what happened and troubleshoot the gun but could find nothing wrong. Like I said earlier, things can go wrong in a hurry when you need them to go right. That is why I chose a revolver over a semi-auto and a pump shotgun over a semi-auto in bear guns.

 

[Deleted member 115654]

7 to go !

 

[Pdvdh]

You're ye

7 to go !

You're trying to convince us you can count, irritate, and spell GERMANE? Quite an accomplishment, and must make you proud.

 

[DirectDrive]

I've had, and observed, too many failures to feed from semi-autos.

Back in the 70's and 80's this was the talk.
Old school talk.
If modern semi-autos were jamamatics our military and police would still be carrying wheel guns.
Fast forward to 2020 and semi-auto pistols are extremely reliable.
Carry what you like.

 

[Pdvdh]

With semi-autos, it is imperative that they be thoroughly tested with the bear defense ammo you'll use. I couldn't stress that enough. Many failures to feed can be created when switching from light duty practice rounds, to the full powered bear defense rounds.

 

[Pdvdh]

Back in the 70's and 80's this was the talk.
Old school talk.
If modern semi-autos were jamamatics our military and police would still be carrying wheel guns.
Fast forward to 2020 and semi-auto pistols are extremely reliable.
Carry what you like.

A plausible feel-good argument...

My son's Glock 20 wasn't manufactured in the 70s and 80s. Experienced a 30% failure to feed and fire rate when loaded with heavy recoiling bear rounds last September. He finally lost confidence, and purchased a revolver.

My brother was a gunsmith for 37 years. Semi-autos came in for failure to function repairs much more often than revolvers. He carries a revolver for bears. No pistols.

Are semi-autos more reliable than 40 - 50yrs ago? I would hope so. Are they as reliable with all variety and flavor of ammo as a revolver? When they get dirty and fouled in the field, will they be as reliable as a revolver exposed to the same conditions? No. They never have been, and never will be. So if comparative reliability matters, semi-autos lose to revolvers. Are they reliable enough to bet your life on? I think you've made up your mind. Use what you please, and I wish you the best. Makes no matter to me.

If I were to carry a semi-auto anything, it would be constantly well maintained and thoroughly tested with my bear defense ammo of choice. And that function testing would be a necessity way more often than with my revolvers.

 

[Pdvdh]

Back in the 70's and 80's this was the talk.
Old school talk.
If modern semi-autos were jamamatics our military and police would still be carrying wheel guns.
Fast forward to 2020 and semi-auto pistols are extremely reliable.
Carry what you like.

If bears carried and used semi-autos with 10-30 round mags, like crooks and bad guys or combatants in war, I'd take my chances and carry a semi-auto also. That explains their selection in those conditions of use. Not neccessary when the enemy has only tooth and claw. And less reliable too.

 

[dogz]

With semi-autos, it is imperative that they be thoroughly tested with the bear defense ammo you'll use. I couldn't stress that enough. Many failures to feed can be created when switching from light duty practice rounds, to the full powered bear defense rounds.

Totally can get behind this, a while back I encouraged a friend to shoot 2 boxes of his back country protection rounds thru his G20 each year (in addition to many rounds of less expensive), he commented on the cost. I told him that if a couple boxes of Buffalo Bore was too much to pay for life insurance then he should go to the ball park and not the back country

He got the point...

 

[Deleted member 115374]

I don't think anyone has to have had any experience with a bear to prepare themselves for an encounter. In fact, it's the idiot that hasn't had an encounter with one yet but spends time in bear country and doesn't prepare for it. Like saying why carry concealed if you've never been mugged, robbed, attacked or car jacked ? Pretty ignorant. I hope it doesn't take a bear charge, attack or worse for someone to prepare by gunning up with a sidearm when in bear country. I hear alot of people mocking bear spray but it kept a sow from making it up my tree when bow hunting bears one year. Cubs got scared and she got my wind and up my tree she came. Two shot of bear spray turned her around. I had a sidearm but didn't need it. Nothing wrong with the less lethal option. It's a 15 second encounter that I can't explain and never want to happen again. Couldn't imagine a face to face encounter with a Brown/Grizzly bear. Train for that moment even if it never happens.

I agree with most every thing you said w/ exception to the " Nothing wrong with the less lethal option ". We have plenty of cases here in Mt where the less than lethal option didn't work and people ended up in the emergency ward. We also have cases in AK and Wyo where the non lethal option AKA Bear Spray was used and in fact turned lethal for the user. Members might want to read thru the whole thread - it is a long one - before commenting.