Shocking Results!

[heikki02003]

Just posted this over at 6mmbr, but for those that don't frequent that site, here are my findings.

Today I weight sorted some .284 Winchester brass. Needless to say I got a shocking result. I know there has been some discussion as to what brass guys are using in .284 Winchesters; either "straight" .284Win Win brand or necked-up 6.5x284 Lapua (oh the irony). I've read that Jerry Tierney extensively tested both Win and Lapua brass and found "Win brass shot as accurately as the Lapua brass". I know that the Win stuff will need to be annealed though. Anyway, here is the breakdown.

Started with 200 brass. Two bags of 50 with the same lot#, and 2 other bags of 50 with the same lot# but different from the first. I guess that was a complicated way of saying two groups of 100 with different lot#'s.

All brass was fully prepped. Flash holes deburred, primer pockets uniformed, full length sized, trimmed, necks turned, necks deburred, and inside of necks polished.

12 brass were immediately culled for random things like crimps and off center flash holes.
188 brass were weight sorted into groups with one grain increments. For example, group "205" weighed anywhere from 205.0gn to 205.9gn.

201gn - 2
202gn - 8
203gn - 21
204gn - 52
205gn - 54
206gn - 23
207gn - 14
208gn - 10
209gn - 4

56.3% of the brass were within 2gn!!!!

Just wanted to pass on my results. I thought someone would find this interesting. Anybody have anything to add? Anybody find similar results? Anybody using annealed Win brass? How do Lapua compare to Win in terms of weight uniformity?

 

[gamedog]

Looks like even if your paying twice the price for Lapua, It may be money well spent if their consistency is a little tighter.

 

[AJ Peacock]

Nice picture. I've tried to line brass up like that and given up after playing dominoes with it. Now I use plastic bowls with post-it stickers on them.

Maybe I drink too much coffee?

I'd be interested to know the difference in water capacity between your lightest and heaviest brass, I've found that is the real determining factor for my brass sorting.

AJ

 

[Buffalobob]

That is more or less what I found with Winchester brass in 308. I managed to get 4 usable groups of out of three hundred cases (not counting the ones I threw away).

As AJ suggests, weight sorting alone will not do the entire job. It helps tremendously, but there will still be individual cases that produce fliers at long range. Immediately throw away any piece that does not shoot to group. After 1 or 2 firings you will have some very uniform brass.

 

[KQguy]

I have been doing all of my brass sorting by shooting them.I gave up on weighing,and filling them up with water.I keep all the one's that group together in a pile,the one's that were 1/2moa off(I mark them "high or "low"),and put the complete fliers in another pile.Anytime I go out and shoot,I just keep track of every shot,and mark the brass with a marker.In my opinion,this is the best way to sort brass.

 

[trueblue]

Do you weight sort before or after your brass prep ?
Looks like alot of work to me.

 

[heikki02003]

I weight sort AFTER brass prep.
Doing things like neck turning, uniforming flash holes, trimming etc. removes brass and therefore weight. The idea is to have brass that have exactly the same outside dimensions, then any variation in weight has to be variances inside the case, and therefore differences in internal volume.
I personally don't think, and can't for that matter, measure water accurately enough to use water as an accurate means of measuring internal volume. Sounds great in theory, but difficult to accomplish in reality.
In terms of work, I estimate I spend an hour on each piece of brass from start to finish. Things like turning and polishing necks are time consuming to say the least.

 

[trueblue]

Do you mean you spend 1 hour per piece of brass?
WOW!
Are there that great of gains in accuracy for doing this, and at what distances does it have a meaningful difference ?

 

[eddybo]

I like Winchester brass, but no matter how consistant you make it through methodical preperation, the case head will still be softer than Lapua brass. I shoot lapua brass because it is tough not because it is consistant.

 

[nheninge]

Wow 50 hours spent on 50 shells? Shoot me now. I spend a lot of time on brass, and I would quit reloading before spending that amount of time. My time is worth a lot of money. With those numbers I could justify spending thousands more on a custom rifle that shoots factory ammunition. Unless you are a competitive shooter, that amount of time has very diminishing returns especially for hunting. Even long range BR shooters will tell you to spend less time reloading and more time shooting. I do all the preparation you list and more and can't even imagine how in the heck I could spend 50 hours on a single box of shells, even with new brass.

Things I would rather do than spend 50 hours reloading 50 shells:

1) spend 25 hours reloading and 2 days scouting
2) Spend 25 hours reloading and 2 days going to the gym to get in shape
3) Spend 25 hours reloading and 2 days doping the wind
4) Spend 25 hours reloading and 2 days reading how to shorten my procedure

You get the idea...

I hope your loads are "perfect" and that you have a rifle capable of justifying this much time.

 

[KQguy]

The sad thing about spending that much time prepping brass,is when you go out and shoot your "perfect rounds",when the winds start to blow,it takes all of your hard work with it.

 

[FEENIX]

I am very new in reloading but have spent many years in machine shops a few years back in various manufacturing firms and all I got out of it is that it was probably manufactured weight-wise as ...

205g with +/- 5 g tolerance, thus 200g to 210g range.

Thanks for putting the time and sharing your results.

 

[Mikecr]

That brass weight may or may not hold any meaning..

Check h2o capacity after fully fireforming & toss the bad
With this, your brass remaining is actually capacity matched to a standard you choose, rather than speculated as such.

 

[heikki02003]

The questions and comments about spending time prepping brass, and weather or not it helps or not, is a long difficult question to answer. The simple answer to the question is: I'm an artist and university professor who loves doing this. My background in the arts has made me an extreme perfectionist, or my meticulous nature led me into the arts. Secondly, I know what it takes to win (or more simply be very good at what you do). I won the Canadian Nationals in 3D Archery, and spent huge amounts of time (totally uncountable) testing equipment, making arrows, weighing arrows, weighting field tips, tuning bows, etc.. So, perfection takes time, trust me I know. It took years and years of flinging pointy sticks and fussing over the details to win the Nationals.
I might get a little theoretical answering the question as to whether or not "spending hours prepping brass" helps. The answer is this: 1 + 1 = 3. Anything you do, whether it be shooting a bow or a rifle, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. This is called gestalt. All of the little things you do add up to being more in the end. And don't give this stuff about not prepping brass and just shooting. Look over on other sites (primarily competition sites) and you can find records consisting of insane data, prep details, and research. People who win fuss. To me the shooting part is easy, it's getting my equipment to perform to my standard.
There was a comment about spending all this time making good brass then shooting it out of a bad rifle. The rifle that this brass is intended for has over $5500 CND invested in it so far, and it's not together yet. I can't see building a nice rifle, or bow for that matter, and shooting something out of it that is not to the level of what it is paired to. Anyway... I think what I'm saying is: to each his own. I just thought some people might be interested in the things I do to make my equipment accurate. From now on I'll leave it to myself, or at least other sites. And good luck reading for 2hours learning how to shorten your procedure, short cuts never pay (or win).
There is a great quote in Warren Page's book "The Accurate Rifle" that talks about perfection. Trust me, perfection is a relative term and I myself have written extensively about perfection in my Masters thesis. Anyway, here is his quote:

"The idea of an accurate rifle is readily comprehensible to anybody; and all agree that within reason accuracy is desirable. It is only when this idea is carried to its ultimate conclusion, that no level of accuracy larger than a pinhead is acceptable, that the nut stays with it. And please believe me, while you do not have to be mildly mad to become an accuracy fan, it helps. It helps."
Warren Page