seating depth increments

[Mikecr]

If you pulled seating out of your butt for OCW testing, then what are the chances that actually was best seating -to base your OCW results on? Then if you go to large seating adjustments, you'll collapse OCW at the same time that you're trying to evaluate just seating..

IMO you should do seating testing first(Berger recommended), then OCW(or ladder if chosen), then only a final tweak of seating for best group shaping. With this you'd have a sound basis for your OCW, and the final tweaking(within 10thou) won't affect the load so much as to cause 2 changes at once.

OCW is about finding a forgiving powder load, not the most accurate overall load.
The failure in OCW to reach most accurate is that it dismisses seating, while this is actually the single greatest adjustment to accuracy.
It's common to see greater opening/closing of grouping with seating testing(actual/Berger's) than any powder changes could cause. This is because seating is the coarse adjustment, and powder is only fine.

 

[FURMAN]

If you pulled seating out of your butt for OCW testing, then what are the chances that actually was best seating -to base your OCW results on? Then if you go to large seating adjustments, you'll collapse OCW at the same time that you're trying to evaluate just seating..

IMO you should do seating testing first(Berger recommended), then OCW(or ladder if chosen), then only a final tweak of seating for best group shaping. With this you'd have a sound basis for your OCW, and the final tweaking(within 10thou) won't affect the load so much as to cause 2 changes at once.

OCW is about finding a forgiving powder load, not the most accurate overall load.
The failure in OCW to reach most accurate is that it dismisses seating, while this is actually the single greatest adjustment to accuracy.
It's common to see greater opening/closing of grouping with seating testing(actual/Berger's) than any powder changes could cause. This is because seating is the coarse adjustment, and powder is only fine.

I am always looking for a faster way to the load my rifles like. I am still undecided about which is better, ladder testing, or OCW. I can tell you from experience that Mikecr is correct with the seating depth. I have run ladder tests before and after seating depth testing. Running a ladder prior to seating depth tests will give data that is very difficult, if not impossible, to read if the seating depth is wrong.

 

[Brad615]

Yes you have to be careful when it comes to over pressure, however I have zero signs of over pressure. I know it has been mentioned in other forums on this site, but berger actually has a seating formula you can follow & they claim one of those will be the sweet spot for your rifle. One of those is jam the bullet .10 thou into lands. I have gone up to 9 thou in with no issues & zero signs of over pressure. I agree with rcoody lots of misinformation out there so that makes it tough when trying to learn reloading. Also coyotezapper is correct with pressure concerns as you can get into trouble with to much pressure.

 

[coyotezapper]

Lots of.misinformation out there about loading into the lands. I do it regularly.

Read about the competition benchrest shooters and the loads they use. I will put your mind at ease.

You could not be more wrong. Benchrest shooters allow for this pressure increase in their load development.

What pressure measuring equipment do you use in your load development? Until you use this equipment you cannot make the above statement.

Scroll down in this article to number 6 on how to use QL and read what it says about pressure when bullets are seated in the lands.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/test-quickload-review/

 

[Pdvdh]

I don't think he claimed anything other than loading with bullets jammed into the lands can be done with good precision, and without danger of excessive pressure.

For the informed...

 

[coyotezapper]

If you read back the context was jamming at book max and is why I asked what load manual he was using. I never said it shouldn't be done but should be done responsibly.

 

[coyotezapper]

Over the years I never knew that most of my loads were way over pressured. I always looked for the normal indicators and assumed if there were no signs then the pressures must be okay. It was not until I purchased an Oehler 43 PBL when I realized how wrong I was and after looking at the round count these barrels had before being shot out should have sent off warning signs long before this time. Most of my loads were as much as 10k over pressure in some cases.

Current experience. Local guy I know wanted to build a LR hunting rifle for his first custom. He wanted a 7RM but I talked him into a 28N. After the rifle was built and bbl break in complete he began load work up. I recommended to him this site to get him started on loads but I also gave him Quickload predictions for his bbl length and case capacity. He called me one day and asked when was the next time I would be going to the local range and could I pressure check his final load. We set up a time and met at the range and when I asked him what his final load was he said 89.2 grs RL33 with the 195 Berger. I knew this would be a warm load being that I gave him 86 grs RL33 and 3025 fps as max for his .210" FB chamber at 3.60" OAL. I told him the charge may vary but the 3025 fps would be at max saami pressure. We set his rifle up and began to test his load and with an average of 3200 fps he was at 75K pressure, 10K over saami. No pressure signs on the Nosler brass at all. The grouping was phenomenal - under 1/4" but once he saw the pressure he could not squeeze the trigger without flinching due to being afraid of these pressures. I agreed to help him find a lower pressured load.

My only motivation here is to encourage all to be smart when it comes to handloading. The consequences could be horrible. Some of the statements I read mirror statements I have heard for years having made them myself and can be misleading. Some just repeat something they have heard just to have a voice.

 

[rcoody]

Over the years I never knew that most of my loads were way over pressured. I always looked for the normal indicators and assumed if there were no signs then the pressures must be okay. It was not until I purchased an Oehler 43 PBL when I realized how wrong I was and after looking at the round count these barrels had before being shot out should have sent off warning signs long before this time. Most of my loads were as much as 10k over pressure in some cases.

Current experience. Local guy I know wanted to build a LR hunting rifle for his first custom. He wanted a 7RM but I talked him into a 28N. After the rifle was built and bbl break in complete he began load work up. I recommended to him this site to get him started on loads but I also gave him Quickload predictions for his bbl length and case capacity. He called me one day and asked when was the next time I would be going to the local range and could I pressure check his final load. We set up a time and met at the range and when I asked him what his final load was he said 89.2 grs RL33 with the 195 Berger. I knew this would be a warm load being that I gave him 86 grs RL33 and 3025 fps as max for his .210" FB chamber at 3.60" OAL. I told him the charge may vary but the 3025 fps would be at max saami pressure. We set his rifle up and began to test his load and with an average of 3200 fps he was at 75K pressure, 10K over saami. No pressure signs on the Nosler brass at all. The grouping was phenomenal - under 1/4" but once he saw the pressure he could not squeeze the trigger without flinching due to being afraid of these pressures. I agreed to help him find a lower pressured load.

My only motivation here is to encourage all to be smart when it comes to handloading. The consequences could be horrible. Some of the statements I read mirror statements I have heard for years having made them myself and can be misleading. Some just repeat something they have heard just to have a voice.

Opinions vary!

 

[philipbrousseau]

.010 increments. then take the best and try +or- .005 on either side looking for improvement.

 

[Buckskinner]

Pressure guidelines are to prevent every action out there from having a catastrophic failure. Now I am not advocating intentionally running loads over pressure, but most here are using bolt actions which can handle more pressure than some other actions, so from a safety aspect if you go by common sense, brass indicators and use a bolt action you will be just fine. And as Zapper indicated, he was running most of his rifles 10k over and didn't even know it...

 

[Shootin4fun]

If you pulled seating out of your butt for OCW testing, then what are the chances that actually was best seating -to base your OCW results on? Then if you go to large seating adjustments, you'll collapse OCW at the same time that you're trying to evaluate just seating..

IMO you should do seating testing first(Berger recommended), then OCW(or ladder if chosen), then only a final tweak of seating for best group shaping. With this you'd have a sound basis for your OCW, and the final tweaking(within 10thou) won't affect the load so much as to cause 2 changes at once.

OCW is about finding a forgiving powder load, not the most accurate overall load.
The failure in OCW to reach most accurate is that it dismisses seating, while this is actually the single greatest adjustment to accuracy.
It's common to see greater opening/closing of grouping with seating testing(actual/Berger's) than any powder changes could cause. This is because seating is the coarse adjustment, and powder is only fine.

Holy crap! I have been reloading fon and off for 30+ years and on here for some time. I used to use the sequence Mike suggests above, picking a mild charge, finding the optimum seating depth, then upping the charge from there. If the group fell apart I'd go back, if it got better I'd go with that.
Then when I learned about OCW a few years back it made sense, and I read many places that the opposite of the above should be the sequence of tests; that is, find the OCW first, then fine tune the group by changing the seating depth.

After years of reloading I'm as confused as ever, chasing low ES and SDs. Nevertheless, even with SDs in the teens and 20s, I often shoot < 1" 3 shot groups at 300 yards in wilderness environments with my pet loads.

I've read volumes on this ****, and frankly it seems less like science every day and more like voodoo. Like neck sizing, collet vs bushing, bla bla bla. Please if there is a reloading god or Guru out there, please speak up and set me straight! I just wanna shoot <.5 MOA with single digit or even low double digit SDs!

- Dazed and confused.

 

[Shootin4fun]

...And I don't consider chasing my tail to be fun!gun)my ***.

 

[FURMAN]

In almost everyone of the 20 plus rifles I have done load development for the preferred seating depth changes with the charge weight. I do not believe it matters if you find the OCW or Optimum seating depth first because when you figure out the first one and then the second one you really need to tweak the first again to see if you can make it better. When you are talking about some the accuracy we are chasing, small changes in pressure can make a decent difference on accuracy. The ladder test and OCW, if done correctly, are trying to find a wide node of acceptable accuracy.

 

[rcoody]

You could not be more wrong. Benchrest shooters allow for this pressure increase in their load development.

What pressure measuring equipment do you use in your load development? Until you use this equipment you cannot make the above statement.

Scroll down in this article to number 6 on how to use QL and read what it says about pressure when bullets are seated in the lands.
Quickload Reloading Software within AccurateShooter.com

Oh yeah the competition shooter. I shoot a stout load.of.$#%&£€ powder with the bullet.jammed .010 to .020. Check out the reccomended loads at.the end of this article. Notice none seem to be over book but right at max jammed.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/6mmbr/

Been reloading for over 45 years. Wonder how we got by without all these computer tools all those years without blowing ourselves up.

My opinion is without a barrel obstruction you would have to be a complete moron and do it intentionally to blow up a modern bolt action rifle. Sure you can ruin some nice brass with overpressure loads and some do it intentionally but you aren't going to blow yourself up.